WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.408 --> 00:00:04.551 You're listening to Strictly Business Podcast with Lindsay Williams. 2 00:00:05.051 --> 00:00:08.817 The JC has closed its doors for another day, so it's time for the 5 o'clock 3 00:00:08.817 --> 00:00:08.900 shadow. 4 00:00:08.900 --> 00:00:11.739 And as always, on a Wednesday, I speak to Skulk Lowe, 5 00:00:12.137 --> 00:00:15.981 Portfolio Manager at PSG Wealth Old Oak in Cape Town. 6 00:00:16.059 --> 00:00:18.387 Skulk, I've got a technical problem. 7 00:00:19.153 --> 00:00:23.434 Okay, it's with my screen because I'm just getting prices ready and everything. 8 00:00:23.872 --> 00:00:26.919 And I've got the all share at nearly 111,000. 9 00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:28.169 That's obviously wrong. 10 00:00:28.637 --> 00:00:29.337 Can't be. 11 00:00:29.632 --> 00:00:30.333 Gold, no, it can't be. 12 00:00:30.634 --> 00:00:34.716 Gold price, 4,044 at 1.5%. 13 00:00:34.899 --> 00:00:35.958 No, that's wrong as well. 14 00:00:36.419 --> 00:00:38.063 Goodness me, and I pay these people for this. 15 00:00:38.462 --> 00:00:41.063 And silver, about $49 an ounce. 16 00:00:41.064 --> 00:00:45.876 The copper price has gone through $5 a pound, and quite significantly so as well. 17 00:00:46.688 --> 00:00:48.204 Hey, I don't know why they mess me around. 18 00:00:48.329 --> 00:00:51.126 But anyway, we can chat about other things. 19 00:00:51.532 --> 00:00:53.282 I mean, come on, Scott, this is good fun, isn't it? 20 00:00:53.283 --> 00:00:53.983 Yeah, it is. 21 00:00:53.983 --> 00:00:56.360 Let's not talk about... 22 00:00:56.956 --> 00:01:02.140 Stav, your screens are clearly doubling up because if gold is showing $4,000 per 23 00:01:02.140 --> 00:01:02.379 ounce, 24 00:01:02.862 --> 00:01:04.702 surely it must be around about $2,000. 25 00:01:04.882 --> 00:01:05.582 I'm not sure. 26 00:01:05.582 --> 00:01:07.905 I haven't looked at my screens for many, many... 27 00:01:08.327 --> 00:01:10.171 Yes, that's the case, man. 28 00:01:10.312 --> 00:01:11.788 It's doubled in two years. 29 00:01:11.827 --> 00:01:13.437 It's quadrupled in 10 years. 30 00:01:15.452 --> 00:01:18.702 As a person said once to me, he had a great saying. 31 00:01:18.999 --> 00:01:24.640 It was when the Ukrainian, or Russian nuclear plant like Chernobyl. 32 00:01:25.148 --> 00:01:32.055 blew up and this great cloud went across the the wheat growing plains of of europe 33 00:01:32.055 --> 00:01:34.055 and you couldn't get 34 00:01:34.055 --> 00:01:38.981 into you couldn't get into the chicago board of trade to buy any wheat futures 35 00:01:38.981 --> 00:01:40.981 because they were limit 36 00:01:40.981 --> 00:01:45.973 up and then when they reopened they went living up again so you would buy any food 37 00:01:45.973 --> 00:01:47.973 that was on the board i.e sugar 38 00:01:47.973 --> 00:01:52.754 for example and i said to my boss i said sugar's not limit limit up He said, it's a 39 00:01:52.754 --> 00:01:54.754 food, get it bought. 40 00:01:55.149 --> 00:01:56.811 You can stick it in your mouth and swallow it. 41 00:01:56.831 --> 00:01:57.531 There we go. 42 00:01:59.112 --> 00:02:00.393 It's like gold's a food. 43 00:02:00.975 --> 00:02:02.596 So that's where the saying comes from. 44 00:02:02.698 --> 00:02:03.398 It's a food. 45 00:02:03.398 --> 00:02:04.039 You've got to buy it. 46 00:02:04.039 --> 00:02:06.159 That's what people are saying. 47 00:02:07.784 --> 00:02:09.206 No, it is. 48 00:02:09.245 --> 00:02:15.245 I mean, literally, the precious metals run. 49 00:02:15.495 --> 00:02:19.339 I mean, we haven't seen this in decades. 50 00:02:20.073 --> 00:02:21.792 And just an interesting factoid. 51 00:02:21.854 --> 00:02:23.089 I mean, I don't know if you... 52 00:02:24.129 --> 00:02:25.730 But up to yesterday, 53 00:02:26.671 --> 00:02:32.861 the JSE has basically grown by 33.7%. 54 00:02:32.900 --> 00:02:34.837 That's just for 2025 alone. 55 00:02:34.861 --> 00:02:36.681 This is from the 1st of January up to now. 56 00:02:37.220 --> 00:02:43.970 If you didn't have any gold counters, and just for fun, I included 57 00:02:44.501 --> 00:02:45.407 Sabania Stillwater. 58 00:02:45.470 --> 00:02:47.095 I know Sabania Stillwater. 59 00:02:47.814 --> 00:02:49.439 It's not a pure gold mine. 60 00:02:50.220 --> 00:02:52.595 And the actual fact it went up from, I think it's... 61 00:02:52.700 --> 00:02:54.720 generated about let's call it 12 62 00:02:55.240 --> 00:03:02.085 12 percent yeah between 10 and 12 percent out of gold that was about two three years 63 00:03:02.085 --> 00:03:04.085 ago and is now well 64 00:03:04.085 --> 00:03:08.718 well over 50 so it is predominantly earning most of its profits out of out of 65 00:03:08.718 --> 00:03:10.718 its gold's operation so i'm going to include it 66 00:03:10.718 --> 00:03:13.609 so that gives us six counters on the jsu if you if 67 00:03:13.624 --> 00:03:18.781 you did not have any of those if you didn't have any of those six counters in 68 00:03:18.781 --> 00:03:20.781 your portfolio. 69 00:03:20.781 --> 00:03:24.559 you wouldn't have seen a 33.7% increase in your portfolio, 70 00:03:25.262 --> 00:03:28.106 but only 18.9%. 71 00:03:28.107 --> 00:03:33.387 So just for fun again, I… So nearly half has been attributable to gold counters. 72 00:03:33.450 --> 00:03:34.208 Exactly. 73 00:03:34.309 --> 00:03:35.575 Essentially is what you're saying. 74 00:03:36.637 --> 00:03:38.293 Out of six counters, exactly. 75 00:03:39.059 --> 00:03:41.293 And then I just added the three. 76 00:03:41.653 --> 00:03:46.637 It's got a pure PGM counters as well, the Impala, Volterra, Northern Platinum. 77 00:03:46.997 --> 00:03:48.247 I included them as well. 78 00:03:48.616 --> 00:03:51.759 So now it brings us to nine counters on the JSE. 79 00:03:52.941 --> 00:03:59.023 If you exclude them out of the JSE, then your performances would have only been 15% 80 00:03:59.023 --> 00:04:01.023 year to date. 81 00:04:01.023 --> 00:04:03.312 So now we're going towards the 40% of your performances. 82 00:04:05.492 --> 00:04:07.507 You probably would have had 40% of the performances. 83 00:04:07.898 --> 00:04:13.445 So somebody on X, on social media, said, well, do me a favor, 84 00:04:13.742 --> 00:04:16.148 just exclude NASPAS and Prozis as well. 85 00:04:16.149 --> 00:04:16.849 Yeah. 86 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:18.161 That's a good one. 87 00:04:18.162 --> 00:04:19.641 That's 11 stocks. 88 00:04:20.022 --> 00:04:25.712 Well, there goes another 8% of your performances, and you would have been left 89 00:04:25.712 --> 00:04:27.712 with 7%. 90 00:04:27.712 --> 00:04:29.829 So did you not have any of those seven counters in your portfolio? 91 00:04:30.657 --> 00:04:33.423 Your performance year-to-date would have been 7% 92 00:04:33.516 --> 00:04:39.141 exactly versus close to 34%, including those 11. 93 00:04:39.157 --> 00:04:45.954 The same sort of thing that's going on with it's not quite as exaggerated on the 94 00:04:45.954 --> 00:04:47.954 S&P 500 with NVIDIA and all those other ones. 95 00:04:47.954 --> 00:04:48.498 but it is phenomenal over there as well. 96 00:04:49.119 --> 00:04:55.067 And I'm not saying it's scary because it teaches you a lesson, I suppose, 97 00:04:55.121 --> 00:04:59.207 but it does show you the breadth of the JSC is simply not there. 98 00:05:00.099 --> 00:05:01.941 No, it's definitely. 99 00:05:05.825 --> 00:05:07.727 We talked about the Magnificent Seven. 100 00:05:08.348 --> 00:05:12.793 Well, I think we've got the Magnificent Seven on our side as well. 101 00:05:12.911 --> 00:05:14.731 Let's call it Magnificent Eleven. 102 00:05:15.715 --> 00:05:18.575 I'll come up with a phrase. 103 00:05:18.576 --> 00:05:19.418 That's a bit worrying. 104 00:05:19.715 --> 00:05:25.278 I mean, happy to have them in my portfolios and to be in early. 105 00:05:25.387 --> 00:05:27.762 But, I mean, also worrying because... 106 00:05:29.292 --> 00:05:30.573 What do we call it in cycling? 107 00:05:30.813 --> 00:05:32.994 After every uphill there's a downhill. 108 00:05:33.737 --> 00:05:36.776 So I'm worried. 109 00:05:37.284 --> 00:05:43.729 But I mean, like somebody asked me, one of my clients called me up this morning and 110 00:05:43.729 --> 00:05:45.729 he said, well, Scott, you know, well done. 111 00:05:45.729 --> 00:05:47.096 I mean, I'm really happy with this performances. 112 00:05:47.174 --> 00:05:50.237 But what do we do now? 113 00:05:50.409 --> 00:05:53.502 I mean, something that can go up as much as it did. 114 00:05:54.018 --> 00:05:57.596 I mean, speaking, you know, towards the gold prize itself. 115 00:05:58.015 --> 00:06:01.579 I mean, we can see a retracement again just as easy. 116 00:06:02.440 --> 00:06:07.202 And my short answer to his question was, I don't think so, 117 00:06:07.303 --> 00:06:12.913 because the business thesis for the reason why gold is running upwards is still very 118 00:06:12.913 --> 00:06:14.913 much in play. 119 00:06:14.913 --> 00:06:16.694 And just for interest, you and I had this conversation, I think three or four weeks 120 00:06:16.694 --> 00:06:16.988 ago, 121 00:06:16.988 --> 00:06:23.381 I told you that Goldman Sachs came out with a report where they actually 122 00:06:24.053 --> 00:06:25.256 said they were crazy. 123 00:06:25.288 --> 00:06:26.522 I mean, Lindsay, this is... 124 00:06:27.083 --> 00:06:28.604 way off, I don't know if you remember it, 125 00:06:29.126 --> 00:06:35.091 they were crazy to come out and say the gold price will reach $4,000 per ounce, 126 00:06:35.091 --> 00:06:37.091 you know, 127 00:06:37.091 --> 00:06:39.091 by the first quarter of next year. 128 00:06:39.091 --> 00:06:39.676 And everybody was saying, oh man, what are they smoking? 129 00:06:39.997 --> 00:06:41.356 I mean, we've reached it. 130 00:06:41.778 --> 00:06:48.044 So they've updated the report yesterday, basically saying that they've, you know, 131 00:06:48.044 --> 00:06:50.044 $4,000 done and dusted. 132 00:06:50.044 --> 00:06:51.512 They're now calling the gold price... 133 00:06:51.847 --> 00:06:55.371 By year end next year, so December 2026, 134 00:06:55.970 --> 00:06:59.134 they call in the gold price at $4,900 per ounce. 135 00:06:59.396 --> 00:07:00.837 That's the new report that was released. 136 00:07:00.838 --> 00:07:02.517 $4,900 did you say? 137 00:07:02.518 --> 00:07:03.218 What did you say? 138 00:07:03.220 --> 00:07:06.861 $4,900 per ounce. 139 00:07:07.119 --> 00:07:11.033 For goodness sake, for $100, let's call it $5,000 Goldman Sachs. 140 00:07:11.080 --> 00:07:13.048 Don't be stingy, for goodness sake. 141 00:07:13.501 --> 00:07:16.908 When they say that, then you know it's time to put in some protection here, 142 00:07:16.908 --> 00:07:17.092 Skullcum. 143 00:07:17.092 --> 00:07:17.908 That's what I was going to say. 144 00:07:18.361 --> 00:07:19.376 That's what I'm saying. 145 00:07:19.627 --> 00:07:22.588 For the client that phones you up and says, what should we do here? 146 00:07:23.367 --> 00:07:24.629 You're in love with these shares. 147 00:07:24.668 --> 00:07:25.949 They're part of the family now. 148 00:07:26.270 --> 00:07:28.672 So get a big block of put options. 149 00:07:28.813 --> 00:07:34.274 You can't sell the calls to fund the puts because you'll get blown out the water 150 00:07:35.813 --> 00:07:39.750 if there's a melt up and you're going to have to buy back those calls and it'll be 151 00:07:39.750 --> 00:07:39.888 messy. 152 00:07:40.344 --> 00:07:43.235 Just buy some seriously cheap out the money puts. 153 00:07:43.688 --> 00:07:47.969 And when they expire, just keep rolling them over with your profits. 154 00:07:48.611 --> 00:07:55.159 And just in case, because those out-the-money puts for a $100 fall or a 155 00:07:55.159 --> 00:07:57.159 $200 fall in the gold price, 156 00:07:57.159 --> 00:08:01.424 which would still mean it was a bull market, that move will triple the value of 157 00:08:01.424 --> 00:08:03.424 those things, I would have thought. 158 00:08:03.424 --> 00:08:03.643 You're cleverer than me on these matters. 159 00:08:04.612 --> 00:08:06.002 No, you're 100% right. 160 00:08:06.471 --> 00:08:07.424 You are 100% right. 161 00:08:07.674 --> 00:08:11.549 But, I mean, so that's the structure in me. 162 00:08:11.830 --> 00:08:16.643 I think that that might not be a bad idea, you know, way out of the money. 163 00:08:17.928 --> 00:08:24.574 But I mean, let's look at the question of this gentleman and the answer. 164 00:08:24.594 --> 00:08:25.735 My answer was, I mean, 165 00:08:26.297 --> 00:08:33.281 so let's again say that the gold price do retrace again and go back to way down 166 00:08:33.860 --> 00:08:35.922 at $3,500. 167 00:08:37.172 --> 00:08:43.953 None of these six mines that I just mentioned are mining gold for over $2,000 168 00:08:43.953 --> 00:08:45.953 per 169 00:08:45.953 --> 00:08:47.953 ounce. 170 00:08:47.953 --> 00:08:49.953 So as it currently stands... 171 00:08:49.953 --> 00:08:50.491 They're making a huge amount of profit. 172 00:08:50.510 --> 00:08:55.854 Every single day they're mining these gold or yellow metals. 173 00:08:55.877 --> 00:09:02.760 I mean, they're making massive, massive amount of profits, huge amount of free 174 00:09:02.760 --> 00:09:04.760 cash flow, and they've got zero, 175 00:09:04.760 --> 00:09:06.760 zero debt on the balance sheet. 176 00:09:06.760 --> 00:09:08.760 You and I, we've got a few grey ears. 177 00:09:08.760 --> 00:09:12.776 We know that gold miners have never, ever been in such a healthy position, ever. 178 00:09:13.010 --> 00:09:16.495 We've never seen gold miners sitting with zero debt on their balance sheet. 179 00:09:17.023 --> 00:09:21.468 And, of course, and they're raking it in every second that we look at our screen 180 00:09:21.468 --> 00:09:21.508 now. 181 00:09:21.687 --> 00:09:26.351 And I've got 4046.39 up one and a half percent. 182 00:09:26.750 --> 00:09:30.859 They say to themselves, well, let's just sit down again, chaps, because I don't 183 00:09:30.859 --> 00:09:32.859 quite believe these numbers. 184 00:09:32.859 --> 00:09:35.742 It costs us 1600 all in to get this out of the ground. 185 00:09:35.820 --> 00:09:37.382 Sixteen hundred dollars an ounce. 186 00:09:38.007 --> 00:09:40.132 The round is nice and strong and everything. 187 00:09:40.164 --> 00:09:42.132 So all this stuff we're importing. 188 00:09:42.519 --> 00:09:43.680 to keep the mines going. 189 00:09:43.700 --> 00:09:45.361 That's cheaper than it was last year. 190 00:09:45.602 --> 00:09:46.863 And they go through all these things. 191 00:09:46.883 --> 00:09:52.012 They're saying, yeah, our margins are X. I mean, 4,000 minus 1,600, 192 00:09:52.013 --> 00:09:54.652 and that's a high number for some mines I know there. 193 00:09:54.934 --> 00:09:56.356 A margin scale. 194 00:09:56.357 --> 00:09:57.215 They made a big calculator. 195 00:09:57.231 --> 00:09:59.192 Whopping, whopping amounts of money. 196 00:09:59.442 --> 00:10:00.738 They won't know what to do with it. 197 00:10:02.707 --> 00:10:04.809 Yeah, and that's my point. 198 00:10:05.188 --> 00:10:08.993 I mean, you've already had the likes of Harmony coming out and saying, well, 199 00:10:08.994 --> 00:10:13.536 we're not finding any opportunities in the gold market. 200 00:10:13.997 --> 00:10:17.739 But, I mean, we do think copper is yellow enough. 201 00:10:18.895 --> 00:10:20.364 Let's go and buy some copper mines. 202 00:10:21.099 --> 00:10:24.161 I'm joking about this, but it's difficult. 203 00:10:24.864 --> 00:10:25.564 But they did. 204 00:10:25.817 --> 00:10:31.192 And so most of these mines are going to look at this and say, well, we're not 205 00:10:31.192 --> 00:10:33.192 finding opportunities. 206 00:10:33.192 --> 00:10:35.192 communities, 207 00:10:35.192 --> 00:10:36.744 we need to start giving this money back. 208 00:10:37.244 --> 00:10:38.467 Special divs coming up. 209 00:10:38.647 --> 00:10:39.787 There we go. 210 00:10:40.631 --> 00:10:45.170 Suddenly you're going to start hearing the noises of special dividends, 211 00:10:46.233 --> 00:10:47.709 larger dividends going forward. 212 00:10:48.131 --> 00:10:50.944 I mean, again, this is gold mines, Lindsay. 213 00:10:51.162 --> 00:10:51.862 Come on. 214 00:10:51.862 --> 00:10:53.100 I mean, we've never, ever seen this. 215 00:10:53.101 --> 00:10:58.763 When has this ever happened where there's so much cash sloshing around that they 216 00:10:58.763 --> 00:11:00.763 have to say, oh, right, 217 00:11:00.763 --> 00:11:02.807 then special dividend in the next quarter or the next half year or something. 218 00:11:02.808 --> 00:11:08.694 No, I've never heard of it ever since from the time that I went to South Africa to 219 00:11:08.694 --> 00:11:10.694 now, and I really got the gold bug. 220 00:11:10.694 --> 00:11:12.694 I've never seen that before. 221 00:11:12.694 --> 00:11:14.694 Yeah. 222 00:11:14.694 --> 00:11:19.139 No, and I think just to bring it back to the local economy, I mean, this is 223 00:11:19.139 --> 00:11:21.139 definitely going to help South Africa, 224 00:11:21.139 --> 00:11:21.327 help the economic position. 225 00:11:21.702 --> 00:11:24.889 I mean, we're the eighth largest gold producer in the world. 226 00:11:26.030 --> 00:11:26.811 We've mentioned that... 227 00:11:27.066 --> 00:11:29.910 The PGMs are having a field day. 228 00:11:30.029 --> 00:11:32.132 I mean, look at the I mean, 229 00:11:33.293 --> 00:11:37.879 one of my colleagues this morning showed me the graph of palladium, 230 00:11:38.300 --> 00:11:42.324 and palladium is really looking quite juicy technically now. 231 00:11:42.379 --> 00:11:43.079 It's good. 232 00:11:43.082 --> 00:11:46.925 So it had a bit of a recovery now, formed a very, very nice base. 233 00:11:46.941 --> 00:11:50.066 I mean, I must compliment you on both platinum and palladium. 234 00:11:50.082 --> 00:11:56.999 You called that support, that strong support, and now it's looking Looking s- 235 00:11:56.999 --> 00:11:58.999 really juicy. 236 00:11:58.999 --> 00:12:04.124 So we're the second largest palladium producer in the world, largest platinum 237 00:12:04.124 --> 00:12:06.124 producer, largest rhodium producer. 238 00:12:06.124 --> 00:12:11.070 If we just do a few small things right over the next year or 239 00:12:11.109 --> 00:12:15.515 two, South Africa can really, and when I talk about South Africa, I'm talking about 240 00:12:15.515 --> 00:12:17.515 the South African economy, 241 00:12:17.515 --> 00:12:19.421 could really take advantage out of this environment. 242 00:12:20.077 --> 00:12:20.777 Very good. 243 00:12:21.210 --> 00:12:28.071 Let's just stay with mining just for a moment Anglo-American came out with a 244 00:12:28.071 --> 00:12:30.071 statement regarding text their operational review an 245 00:12:30.071 --> 00:12:35.055 updated outlook market seems to like that although it's a buoyant market anyway 246 00:12:35.055 --> 00:12:37.055 because of things that they dig out the ground but 247 00:12:37.055 --> 00:12:38.173 anyway 1.4 percent higher for Anglo-American. 248 00:12:38.235 --> 00:12:45.173 First round came out with a voluntary update today Skunk and with all the 249 00:12:45.173 --> 00:12:47.173 excitement elsewhere didn't look so good or rather the market 250 00:12:47.173 --> 00:12:49.173 didn't think it looks so good. 251 00:12:49.173 --> 00:12:51.173 Did you Have a look at it. 252 00:12:51.173 --> 00:12:53.173 A very quick look, Lindsay Sark. 253 00:12:53.173 --> 00:12:55.173 I couldn't read it. 254 00:12:55.173 --> 00:12:56.388 It's still got to do with this financial conduct. 255 00:12:57.310 --> 00:13:01.192 There's this whole issue that they had recently. 256 00:13:01.255 --> 00:13:04.192 UK motor problem, wasn't it? 257 00:13:04.193 --> 00:13:04.893 There we go. 258 00:13:04.893 --> 00:13:05.455 And it's... 259 00:13:05.489 --> 00:13:06.255 The commission matter. 260 00:13:06.521 --> 00:13:09.052 Yes, it's been settled by the government, 261 00:13:09.083 --> 00:13:15.364 and they've got to pay back these companies that did something naughty when 262 00:13:15.364 --> 00:13:17.364 they were selling cars to people. 263 00:13:17.364 --> 00:13:17.489 And the first round was involved in that. 264 00:13:18.054 --> 00:13:20.837 I think they've got to pay back each person 700 pounds. 265 00:13:20.857 --> 00:13:24.642 It amounts to about 14 billion across the UK. 266 00:13:25.122 --> 00:13:28.802 But obviously, First Rand involved or a division of First Rand involved. 267 00:13:29.068 --> 00:13:30.724 And that's what's leaning on it a bit. 268 00:13:30.826 --> 00:13:33.490 So once that's out the way, not too much to worry about. 269 00:13:33.505 --> 00:13:34.552 But I had to mention that. 270 00:13:34.990 --> 00:13:36.708 Anything else you saw on the JSC today? 271 00:13:38.208 --> 00:13:40.662 Besides all these. 272 00:13:40.771 --> 00:13:47.037 So what we've seen, I think, NEARS this morning is also the IPO of this. 273 00:13:47.274 --> 00:13:51.419 Optasia, don't ask me a lot about the company. 274 00:13:51.579 --> 00:13:53.001 This is a… What's Optasia? 275 00:13:53.002 --> 00:13:54.200 It sounds like a Disney film. 276 00:13:55.102 --> 00:13:55.802 Yeah. 277 00:13:55.802 --> 00:14:02.532 I mean, I think the most important point for me is most probably the fact that 278 00:14:02.532 --> 00:14:04.532 we're seeing 279 00:14:04.532 --> 00:14:06.532 another listing. 280 00:14:06.532 --> 00:14:08.532 That's good. 281 00:14:08.532 --> 00:14:10.532 That's good. 282 00:14:10.532 --> 00:14:12.532 We've seen a few companies delist and move away from the company. 283 00:14:12.532 --> 00:14:14.532 And it's not going to be a small listing. 284 00:14:14.532 --> 00:14:17.581 I mean, they… The total capital they're looking to raise is eventually going to be 285 00:14:17.581 --> 00:14:19.581 at 6.3 billion rand. 286 00:14:19.581 --> 00:14:23.511 So public offer now is going to be 1.3 billion, and then there's going to be a 287 00:14:23.511 --> 00:14:25.511 private placement of 5 billion. 288 00:14:25.511 --> 00:14:28.534 So 6.3 billion is not a small company, so it had my attention. 289 00:14:29.136 --> 00:14:34.120 So they mentioned the company is an AI fintech company, 290 00:14:34.198 --> 00:14:36.354 so they've got all the right buzzwords. 291 00:14:36.807 --> 00:14:39.682 And this is a very interesting business model. 292 00:14:39.698 --> 00:14:42.245 I mean, they use AI. 293 00:14:42.638 --> 00:14:49.065 It's a company that uses AI and I talk about an extra 5,000 data points 294 00:14:49.584 --> 00:14:55.651 to basically access and use AI to look at the creditworthiness of clients. 295 00:14:57.276 --> 00:15:03.924 And they predominantly focus on microloans, airtime credit, 296 00:15:05.002 --> 00:15:10.846 cash advances, primary for mobile operators. 297 00:15:10.847 --> 00:15:11.643 I've got clients like... 298 00:15:12.271 --> 00:15:14.356 They partner with MTN and Vodacom. 299 00:15:14.416 --> 00:15:17.325 So it's a very interesting business model. 300 00:15:19.231 --> 00:15:22.193 And then it had me dig a little bit deeper. 301 00:15:22.533 --> 00:15:29.478 So there's a company, EPE Capital Partners, where ETH is Capital Exposure 302 00:15:29.478 --> 00:15:31.478 Capital Partners. 303 00:15:31.478 --> 00:15:33.462 And this is also a holding company. 304 00:15:33.463 --> 00:15:37.056 And I don't want to say it's the likes of a RemGrow, 305 00:15:37.291 --> 00:15:41.994 because then some people might take offense and say it's nothing like a 306 00:15:41.994 --> 00:15:42.273 RemGrow. 307 00:15:42.369 --> 00:15:46.025 But it's also a company that invests in a few companies. 308 00:15:46.041 --> 00:15:48.651 And one of these companies, Pretty much 51% 309 00:15:48.910 --> 00:15:53.871 of its NAV is made up out of this Octavia. 310 00:15:53.910 --> 00:16:00.715 So I get a feeling that this is sort of this EPE Capital Partners opportunity to 311 00:16:00.715 --> 00:16:00.892 cash 312 00:16:00.892 --> 00:16:04.449 in a bit, but we'll still see what happens. 313 00:16:04.856 --> 00:16:10.231 But to the listeners out there that say, well, I know the company. 314 00:16:11.668 --> 00:16:14.059 Octasia sounds really good. 315 00:16:14.590 --> 00:16:15.290 I mean. 316 00:16:15.438 --> 00:16:21.383 maybe look at applying for the IPO, could maybe consider buying this EPE 317 00:16:21.786 --> 00:16:23.086 Capital Partners listed on the JSE. 318 00:16:23.168 --> 00:16:27.332 That's an interesting sort of lateral thinking there. 319 00:16:28.473 --> 00:16:29.173 Correct. 320 00:16:29.173 --> 00:16:29.712 Very good. 321 00:16:29.950 --> 00:16:30.650 Okay. 322 00:16:31.051 --> 00:16:32.629 So EPE Capital Partners. 323 00:16:33.395 --> 00:16:35.754 When does this new Disney film list? 324 00:16:36.473 --> 00:16:40.239 That's a good one. 325 00:16:40.270 --> 00:16:43.832 Oxtasia, when is it coming out? 326 00:16:44.145 --> 00:16:46.238 and unfortunately do not have a data. 327 00:16:46.298 --> 00:16:47.358 They talk about... 328 00:16:47.958 --> 00:16:51.081 I've got no idea when the data's out. 329 00:16:51.082 --> 00:16:51.839 I'm trying to look at it. 330 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:53.198 But it's a definite IPO. 331 00:16:53.542 --> 00:16:55.097 It's coming to the JSC. 332 00:16:56.917 --> 00:16:59.542 They're talking about South Africa's biggest RP in a year. 333 00:17:01.816 --> 00:17:02.925 Most probably still this year. 334 00:17:03.847 --> 00:17:07.206 But just back to EPE Cattle Path. 335 00:17:07.207 --> 00:17:09.519 It's trading at about 7 rand a share. 336 00:17:09.878 --> 00:17:12.347 The net asset value of this company, if you add all these 337 00:17:12.822 --> 00:17:19.570 these optasias and all the companies they own is worth about 8.57 so they're trading 338 00:17:19.570 --> 00:17:21.570 at a 18 percent 339 00:17:21.570 --> 00:17:26.773 discount to nav not as juicy as as the 40 percent uh rim grows trading but here's an 340 00:17:26.797 --> 00:17:29.836 interesting one and and mike i caught a 341 00:17:29.883 --> 00:17:36.586 company inside the portfolio another company that's been been in the news let's 342 00:17:36.586 --> 00:17:38.586 call the past two years 343 00:17:38.586 --> 00:17:42.599 is is a possible listing of time bank and Just for interest's sake, 344 00:17:43.521 --> 00:17:48.025 EPE Capital Partners, one of the companies that they own is also Time Bank. 345 00:17:48.083 --> 00:17:51.111 So it's not only this Disney movie. 346 00:17:51.205 --> 00:17:54.189 I'm always going to look at this company now. 347 00:17:54.228 --> 00:17:55.251 Yeah, I know you will. 348 00:17:55.275 --> 00:17:55.975 It's very bad. 349 00:17:56.251 --> 00:17:58.619 We'll get into trouble if we keep on saying that arrival. 350 00:17:58.650 --> 00:18:00.884 I just took my pencil at the thought of that. 351 00:18:01.291 --> 00:18:06.697 Skulk, tell me about Time again because there's a book just been released, I 352 00:18:06.697 --> 00:18:08.697 believe, which is co-authored by 353 00:18:08.697 --> 00:18:09.447 Bruce Whitfield and... 354 00:18:09.478 --> 00:18:10.178 And... 355 00:18:10.178 --> 00:18:11.884 Gosh, I can't, Neville, not Neville. 356 00:18:12.524 --> 00:18:13.646 Adrian Saville. 357 00:18:13.647 --> 00:18:15.466 Adrian Saville, that's it, yes, yes, yes. 358 00:18:15.747 --> 00:18:17.149 And it's all about that. 359 00:18:18.212 --> 00:18:19.228 Who's behind that again? 360 00:18:20.149 --> 00:18:21.032 Some serious people. 361 00:18:22.110 --> 00:18:26.603 Yeah, it's got the right names behind it. 362 00:18:27.853 --> 00:18:34.759 I'm going to make it injustice if I, but I'm talking about really, really big, 363 00:18:35.103 --> 00:18:35.803 big names. 364 00:18:36.714 --> 00:18:38.076 that we can't think of at the moment. 365 00:18:38.077 --> 00:18:39.498 I can't mention any one of them. 366 00:18:40.378 --> 00:18:42.742 Exactly. 367 00:18:42.921 --> 00:18:47.246 I'm sure it's one of the first-round people, ex-first-round people that are 368 00:18:47.246 --> 00:18:47.486 doing it. 369 00:18:47.486 --> 00:18:48.066 I'm sure it is. 370 00:18:48.222 --> 00:18:50.269 Yes, it's Michael Yordan, if I'm not mistaken. 371 00:18:51.488 --> 00:18:52.816 Yes, that's it. 372 00:18:52.817 --> 00:18:57.253 I'm going to Google this now because I think it is beloved. 373 00:18:57.254 --> 00:18:58.660 I think it's Michael Yordan. 374 00:18:59.410 --> 00:19:02.863 And then they partnered up with the African Rainbow guys. 375 00:19:02.925 --> 00:19:04.378 Let me just quickly just confirm that. 376 00:19:05.422 --> 00:19:06.122 Yes, there we go. 377 00:19:06.142 --> 00:19:11.465 Kies shareholders is African Rainbow Minerals, African Rainbow Capital. 378 00:19:11.742 --> 00:19:12.442 Yes. 379 00:19:12.442 --> 00:19:12.986 And that's 380 00:19:13.066 --> 00:19:19.965 Patrice Mutsepe and what's that person that was involved with Sun Lama and he 381 00:19:19.965 --> 00:19:20.103 moved away from 382 00:19:20.103 --> 00:19:20.769 Sun Lama as well. 383 00:19:21.949 --> 00:19:26.308 But also, I'm 99% sure that 384 00:19:27.886 --> 00:19:29.105 Michael Goddard has also got some. 385 00:19:29.430 --> 00:19:30.511 some involvement there. 386 00:19:30.512 --> 00:19:32.450 But anyway, some people that know what they're doing. 387 00:19:32.571 --> 00:19:36.493 And is it a confirmed listing or just one of those vicious rumors? 388 00:19:37.556 --> 00:19:39.352 No, it's a time, time. 389 00:19:39.353 --> 00:19:41.790 No, a time bank has always been a vicious rumor. 390 00:19:42.774 --> 00:19:47.227 There was a rumor that it would actually list before the, before the year end. 391 00:19:48.118 --> 00:19:52.259 But that's, that eventually where we sort of said, no, they don't need to, to list 392 00:19:52.259 --> 00:19:54.259 this company. 393 00:19:54.259 --> 00:19:57.196 And, but there's always been every now and then it picks up that there's a, there's a 394 00:19:57.196 --> 00:19:57.303 possible. 395 00:19:57.622 --> 00:20:03.909 possible listing you know of time bank um i think eventually it might just happen 396 00:20:03.909 --> 00:20:05.909 i'm sure it will 397 00:20:05.909 --> 00:20:06.230 Well, it'll be good. 398 00:20:06.250 --> 00:20:12.699 I mean, it's nice to hear something that's not leaving the JSC, but in fact, going in 399 00:20:12.699 --> 00:20:14.699 the opposite direction and joining it. 400 00:20:14.699 --> 00:20:19.621 Right, Scott, we've babbled on too much with our enthusiasm about certain asset 401 00:20:19.621 --> 00:20:21.621 classes and certain securities. 402 00:20:21.621 --> 00:20:24.207 So I'm going to bring us back down to earth now and give you the real dope, the 403 00:20:24.207 --> 00:20:24.219 real deal. 404 00:20:24.535 --> 00:20:25.394 And it's the prices. 405 00:20:25.676 --> 00:20:27.644 The dollar round is 1716. 406 00:20:27.769 --> 00:20:30.519 Who'd have thought it that it might change its big figure? 407 00:20:31.124 --> 00:20:35.449 Not from 18 to 19, from 19 to 20, but from 17 to 16. 408 00:20:35.488 --> 00:20:36.347 Well done, the rand. 409 00:20:36.750 --> 00:20:39.512 British pound against the rand, 23 on the nail. 410 00:20:39.996 --> 00:20:43.980 And the euro rand is 1993. 411 00:20:44.074 --> 00:20:47.262 That's the first time it's been below 20 for quite a while. 412 00:20:48.121 --> 00:20:50.043 Euro dollar is 116.15. 413 00:20:50.090 --> 00:20:51.980 This is a strange thing, Scott. 414 00:20:52.105 --> 00:20:57.918 The dollar's gone from like 118.50, 119 euro dollar, now to 116, 415 00:20:57.919 --> 00:20:59.277 and yet the gold price has gone up. 416 00:20:59.293 --> 00:20:59.993 I mean, the... 417 00:20:59.996 --> 00:21:03.320 The relationship between gold and the dollar is weak dollar, strong gold. 418 00:21:03.379 --> 00:21:04.840 Not strong dollar, strong gold. 419 00:21:05.340 --> 00:21:08.387 So it's independent strength from that yellow metal of yours. 420 00:21:08.402 --> 00:21:11.668 British pound against the dollar, $1.34. 421 00:21:11.669 --> 00:21:12.488 What else have we got here? 422 00:21:13.027 --> 00:21:14.613 Oh, yes, gold price. 423 00:21:15.371 --> 00:21:19.121 Bear market, sell, sell, sell, $4,039. 424 00:21:19.122 --> 00:21:21.402 Now it's fallen $5 in the last half hour. 425 00:21:21.934 --> 00:21:24.074 Goodness me, I can't believe I'm telling you this. 426 00:21:26.448 --> 00:21:27.649 $4,039 up 1.4%. 427 00:21:27.650 --> 00:21:28.350 Oh, my word. 428 00:21:28.350 --> 00:21:29.809 So another $39 as well. 429 00:21:29.868 --> 00:21:30.891 Yeah, that's all over. 430 00:21:31.250 --> 00:21:33.512 Platinum is $16.92. 431 00:21:33.513 --> 00:21:34.348 Extraordinary. 432 00:21:34.387 --> 00:21:37.731 At $42 an ounce, 2.6% higher. 433 00:21:38.028 --> 00:21:40.848 And palladium up 7.25% today. 434 00:21:40.849 --> 00:21:46.254 $100 an ounce better at $14.73. 435 00:21:46.255 --> 00:21:48.160 Okay, on to other commodities. 436 00:21:48.239 --> 00:21:52.317 And as we agreed upon a few weeks ago, We include copper in our bulleted. 437 00:21:52.318 --> 00:21:53.099 It's coming off a bit. 438 00:21:53.118 --> 00:21:56.722 It's down 0.3%, but it's above $5 a pound in New York. 439 00:21:57.183 --> 00:22:02.890 $5.03, $5.035 per pound. 440 00:22:02.968 --> 00:22:05.593 That's quite a move, the $5 move. 441 00:22:05.609 --> 00:22:07.030 It was $4.50 not long ago. 442 00:22:07.437 --> 00:22:09.999 So copper on the way up, as we predicted. 443 00:22:10.155 --> 00:22:15.202 And crude oil now, $62.88, up nearly 2% for West Texas crude. 444 00:22:15.218 --> 00:22:18.859 And Brent crude up 1.6%, $66. 445 00:22:19.412 --> 00:22:26.334 uh 50 natural gas incidentally down 4.1 percent uh bitcoin went to 446 00:22:26.374 --> 00:22:33.374 an all-time record high a couple of days ago 125 000 odd it is now 122 250 which is 447 00:22:33.374 --> 00:22:33.817 up 448 00:22:33.817 --> 00:22:38.209 a third of a percent on the day the south african 10-year bond it's 449 00:22:38.256 --> 00:22:44.850 having a go again it's nine basis points down the yield nine point zero nine 450 00:22:44.850 --> 00:22:46.850 percent so up the bonds well done 451 00:22:46.850 --> 00:22:48.060 that's with the strong round of course in the us tenure is 452 00:22:49.322 --> 00:22:55.629 4.12%, which is a quarter of a percent down, or what is that, just one and a bit 453 00:22:55.629 --> 00:22:57.629 basis points. 454 00:22:57.629 --> 00:23:01.015 S&P 500 futures closing in on 6,800. 455 00:23:01.016 --> 00:23:01.992 What a performance. 456 00:23:02.672 --> 00:23:07.804 The day's range is 6,758 to 6,793. 457 00:23:07.805 --> 00:23:13.086 It's on 6,793 now, all-time record highs, and that's for the December futures. 458 00:23:13.398 --> 00:23:16.383 So all-time records on the gold, the S&P. 459 00:23:17.180 --> 00:23:21.383 And also the Bitcoin price a couple of days ago. 460 00:23:21.805 --> 00:23:23.047 What a week it's been already. 461 00:23:23.805 --> 00:23:25.484 God, Scott, I'm exhausted. 462 00:23:25.625 --> 00:23:29.594 Can you please give me your ups and downs on the JSC? 463 00:23:29.812 --> 00:23:31.133 And I'll give you mine in a moment. 464 00:23:32.734 --> 00:23:33.434 Yes. 465 00:23:33.434 --> 00:23:36.016 I think before I do that, I just want to clarify what I said earlier. 466 00:23:36.500 --> 00:23:41.984 Looking at Don's involvement with Time Bank, I need to correct that immediately. 467 00:23:42.078 --> 00:23:45.344 I think Michael will give me a hard attack. 468 00:23:46.016 --> 00:23:52.803 since he's involved with time back it's actually with bank zero that's where 469 00:23:52.803 --> 00:23:54.803 michael radon's involved but time back is in fact as 470 00:23:54.803 --> 00:23:59.908 as i mentioned it's a part of patrice matip is uh arc or african african river 471 00:23:59.908 --> 00:24:01.908 capsule yes okay 472 00:24:01.908 --> 00:24:07.291 good and also you can have a look at that book that we spoke of that'll tell you 473 00:24:07.291 --> 00:24:09.291 everything about it should you it go to market and you want to 474 00:24:09.291 --> 00:24:12.729 know a little bit more apparently a very good read if you like that sort of thing 475 00:24:12.729 --> 00:24:14.729 Uh, ScalpJSC, please. 476 00:24:14.729 --> 00:24:15.614 Not the indices yet, the individual movers. 477 00:24:16.595 --> 00:24:20.794 Oh, individual movers, I just wanted to say, I mean, you gave it all away when we 478 00:24:20.794 --> 00:24:21.017 started. 479 00:24:21.017 --> 00:24:22.419 That's all right, you can... 480 00:24:22.420 --> 00:24:26.286 But individual movers for today, you know, let's start at the losers for today. 481 00:24:27.005 --> 00:24:33.364 We had Sappy down 4.6%, Hyde Prop down 4.1%. First round, 482 00:24:33.427 --> 00:24:39.880 as you mentioned, you know, for reasons very unfortunate, 3.6% 483 00:24:40.114 --> 00:24:40.814 down. 484 00:24:40.814 --> 00:24:41.965 down 3.5%. 485 00:24:42.587 --> 00:24:49.055 And Afrimat, after a trading update yesterday, which didn't look too bad, that 486 00:24:49.055 --> 00:24:51.055 was down 2%. 487 00:24:51.212 --> 00:24:56.962 Let me quickly see if there was any of the companies that had dividends, because I 488 00:24:56.962 --> 00:24:57.427 know 489 00:24:57.774 --> 00:25:00.899 High Prop was most probably a dividend situation, yes. 490 00:25:01.227 --> 00:25:08.149 So out of those, High Prop was a dividend drop, so not to worry there. 491 00:25:08.676 --> 00:25:11.103 Then, on the winners for today. 492 00:25:11.663 --> 00:25:13.829 Leave the best till last low, they call him. 493 00:25:13.990 --> 00:25:14.790 Okay, go ahead. 494 00:25:15.853 --> 00:25:16.553 There we go. 495 00:25:18.307 --> 00:25:19.468 Camelot is no surprise. 496 00:25:19.469 --> 00:25:23.672 6.9% up today, Valtteri. 497 00:25:23.871 --> 00:25:26.137 Northern platinum, 6% up. 498 00:25:26.254 --> 00:25:29.574 Impala platinum, 5.7% up. 499 00:25:30.098 --> 00:25:33.082 5.2% for Sabania Stillwater. 500 00:25:33.504 --> 00:25:34.965 This is an odd one out. 501 00:25:35.090 --> 00:25:35.790 Pick and pay. 502 00:25:35.980 --> 00:25:39.543 That's done 4.94% for today. 503 00:25:39.544 --> 00:25:40.652 What an F4. 504 00:25:40.653 --> 00:25:42.574 Yeah, that's a strange, strange one. 505 00:25:42.605 --> 00:25:43.305 Isn't it? 506 00:25:44.018 --> 00:25:49.342 Naturally, in the top 10, top 15, we've also had Goldfields up 3.5%, 507 00:25:49.545 --> 00:25:55.147 Angler Gold up 3.1%, and Harmony up 2.6%. 508 00:25:55.148 --> 00:25:59.772 So, yeah, it's sort of a Jay's year of old today. 509 00:25:59.936 --> 00:26:01.420 Definitely a Jay's year of old. 510 00:26:01.858 --> 00:26:02.780 Absolutely brilliant. 511 00:26:02.781 --> 00:26:05.327 Yeah, I've got all the same ones. 512 00:26:05.328 --> 00:26:10.217 I've got, you know, Sappy Story's been a big one in the last week or so. 513 00:26:11.311 --> 00:26:12.311 Still on the downside. 514 00:26:12.624 --> 00:26:16.357 but um I think now, with the drumroll, 515 00:26:16.597 --> 00:26:22.441 you've got to have a look at the indices because I see that the resources have been 516 00:26:22.441 --> 00:26:24.441 the standout winners on the JSC today. 517 00:26:24.441 --> 00:26:25.129 But give us all the details because it is extraordinary. 518 00:26:26.566 --> 00:26:30.871 So, yeah, I just want to quickly mention a quick factoid. 519 00:26:31.668 --> 00:26:33.199 First round was egg stiff. 520 00:26:33.574 --> 00:26:37.277 So there's a two round 47 egg stiff story as well. 521 00:26:37.278 --> 00:26:43.058 So that do change it a bit because we've seen a movement of... 522 00:26:43.350 --> 00:26:49.496 2.91 today on the downward, and it had a 2.47 dividend. 523 00:26:49.918 --> 00:26:50.618 Flat on the day. 524 00:26:50.637 --> 00:26:52.797 It was still negative. 525 00:26:52.859 --> 00:26:55.602 I mean, all the other banks had a really positive day. 526 00:26:56.125 --> 00:27:02.953 So let's call it that announcement did affect it negatively, but not as negative 527 00:27:02.953 --> 00:27:04.953 as we would have thought. 528 00:27:04.953 --> 00:27:06.953 So here we go. 529 00:27:06.953 --> 00:27:08.500 JSE, I mean, you gave it away at the start of the program. 530 00:27:08.501 --> 00:27:12.781 Under the 10,971 points, that's up one. 531 00:27:12.994 --> 00:27:16.135 point four percent i'm going to leave the best for last industrials up 532 00:27:16.594 --> 00:27:23.153 68 basis points while financials were just in the green up a point one nine percent 533 00:27:23.153 --> 00:27:25.153 and the best 534 00:27:25.153 --> 00:27:29.825 was and the winner was by a country mile resource index up today in 535 00:27:29.965 --> 00:27:30.665 total 536 00:27:30.856 --> 00:27:37.356 3.71 man oh man oh man what a performance 537 00:27:38.293 --> 00:27:43.927 isn't that brilliant what was the value traded today please skulk So value traded 538 00:27:43.927 --> 00:27:45.927 for today. 539 00:27:45.927 --> 00:27:46.730 Yeah, Austin, not a slow day. 540 00:27:46.909 --> 00:27:50.495 It was just shy of 27 billion traded to the market for today. 541 00:27:50.773 --> 00:27:51.473 Not bad at all. 542 00:27:51.491 --> 00:27:54.296 With a strong round, that makes quite a good dollar sum. 543 00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:57.124 Skalk, it's been a very exciting day. 544 00:27:57.125 --> 00:28:00.077 It will continue to be so in New York hours, I'm sure. 545 00:28:00.405 --> 00:28:01.562 What will it be next week? 546 00:28:01.609 --> 00:28:02.309 I don't know. 547 00:28:02.309 --> 00:28:07.327 But keep me in touch and keep us in touch on that put option situation. 548 00:28:07.390 --> 00:28:11.249 I know you can't talk on behalf of clients, but just see if you've... 549 00:28:11.470 --> 00:28:18.452 investigated i'd love to see what they're charging these days uh for gold put 550 00:28:18.452 --> 00:28:20.452 options will they be incredibly low because the prices 551 00:28:20.452 --> 00:28:25.272 go on shooting up or will they start to get a little bit more expensive because of 552 00:28:25.272 --> 00:28:27.272 the volatility in the market because of the vix 553 00:28:27.272 --> 00:28:32.537 on the on the gold market will they uh will the premiums of the put options start 554 00:28:32.537 --> 00:28:34.537 to go up i'd like to know that you'll 555 00:28:34.537 --> 00:28:38.162 report upon that next week of course yeah let's let's have a look that'll be 556 00:28:38.162 --> 00:28:40.162 interesting to look at okay 557 00:28:40.162 --> 00:28:42.483 Jolly Good Sculptor is a portfolio manager at PSG Wealth Old Oak in Cape Town. 558 00:28:42.561 --> 00:28:43.881 And that was the five o'clock shadow. 559 00:28:44.463 --> 00:28:51.413 The views and opinions expressed in these podcasts are those of Lindsay Williams and 560 00:28:51.413 --> 00:28:53.413 various contributors and do not reflect the policy, 561 00:28:53.413 --> 00:28:55.170 position or opinion of any other agency, organisation, 562 00:28:55.499 --> 00:29:00.139 employer or company associated with StrictlyBusinessPodcast.com. 563 00:29:00.592 --> 00:29:07.561 Assumptions made on the analyses are not reflective of the position of any other 564 00:29:07.561 --> 00:29:09.561 entity other than the speaker or the author. 565 00:29:09.561 --> 00:29:13.028 And since we are critically thinking human beings, these views are always subject to 566 00:29:13.028 --> 00:29:13.146 change, 567 00:29:13.305 --> 00:29:15.868 revision and rethinking at any time. 568 00:29:16.173 --> 00:29:18.594 Please do not hold us to them in perpetuity.