WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.412 --> 00:00:04.553 You're listening to Strictly Business Podcast with Lindsay Williams. 2 00:00:05.295 --> 00:00:08.471 JSC has closed its doors for another day, so it's time for the five o'clock shadow. 3 00:00:08.494 --> 00:00:14.955 And as always on a Wednesday, I speak to Skulk Lowe, Portfolio Manager at PSG 4 00:00:14.955 --> 00:00:16.955 Wealth Old Oak in Cape Town. 5 00:00:16.955 --> 00:00:19.939 Now, the screen of mine, which I normally rely on, Skulk, has gone down suddenly 6 00:00:19.939 --> 00:00:21.939 just before you came on. 7 00:00:21.939 --> 00:00:22.002 So you're going to be my eyes and ears today. 8 00:00:22.018 --> 00:00:27.174 But one thing I did see was USCPI coming in slightly higher for the month of May 9 00:00:27.174 --> 00:00:29.174 than the month of April. 10 00:00:29.174 --> 00:00:31.905 2.4% versus 2.3%, but below the 2.5% expected. 11 00:00:32.225 --> 00:00:34.385 Things are very, very quiet at the moment, aren't they? 12 00:00:35.409 --> 00:00:39.229 Yeah, we're going to try and find stuff to talk about today. 13 00:00:40.276 --> 00:00:46.737 But yeah, I think inflation is not really one that, like you mentioned, 14 00:00:46.846 --> 00:00:48.174 it's a slight miss. 15 00:00:48.377 --> 00:00:54.487 The business confidence for South Africa today also came in a bit lower than 16 00:00:54.487 --> 00:00:54.531 expected. 17 00:00:54.531 --> 00:00:56.831 So in general, but in general, not a lot. 18 00:00:57.537 --> 00:01:03.802 happening in markets, unless you're in PGMs or gold. 19 00:01:04.283 --> 00:01:05.443 Yeah, that has been a story. 20 00:01:05.709 --> 00:01:11.669 And it was about two weeks ago, I think it was, maybe three, that suddenly we had a 21 00:01:11.669 --> 00:01:13.669 day, Skulk, 22 00:01:13.669 --> 00:01:17.630 and you'll probably remember it, when we had the actual platinum price in US dollar 23 00:01:17.630 --> 00:01:19.630 terms up around about 10%. 24 00:01:19.630 --> 00:01:22.443 And the JSE listed PGM producers all took off. 25 00:01:22.865 --> 00:01:27.456 And I said, that is sometimes the sign of a market trend changing. 26 00:01:27.477 --> 00:01:30.899 You get the initial reaction, it settles down a bit, and then it goes again. 27 00:01:31.177 --> 00:01:32.356 And it's done that, hasn't it? 28 00:01:32.661 --> 00:01:34.661 It seems to me to be behaving quite nicely. 29 00:01:34.997 --> 00:01:41.395 I'm not calling it bull market, but I've certainly been very encouraged by certain 30 00:01:41.395 --> 00:01:43.395 days of the last two, three weeks. 31 00:01:43.395 --> 00:01:46.458 Yeah, I mean, not calling it the bull market yet. 32 00:01:47.145 --> 00:01:51.349 Yet we've actually had a fantastic, fantastic run. 33 00:01:52.789 --> 00:01:59.415 In these platinum stocks, I mean, we're looking at Valterra, Altamplatz, currently 34 00:01:59.415 --> 00:02:01.415 53% 35 00:02:01.415 --> 00:02:03.415 up year-to-date. 36 00:02:03.415 --> 00:02:03.618 Impala Platinum up 70% year-to-date. 37 00:02:04.063 --> 00:02:06.626 And Northern Platinum up 79% year-to-date. 38 00:02:06.627 --> 00:02:13.196 So, I mean, this is the type of returns you and I spoke about only coming from 39 00:02:13.196 --> 00:02:15.196 gold counters. 40 00:02:15.196 --> 00:02:19.087 And while we're at it, I mean, we'll touch on the last one, the biggest one first. 41 00:02:19.509 --> 00:02:20.509 You know, gold feels up. 42 00:02:21.104 --> 00:02:22.606 79% year-to-date. 43 00:02:22.607 --> 00:02:24.850 Durban Riddipoer deep 51%. 44 00:02:24.987 --> 00:02:27.112 79%? 45 00:02:27.229 --> 00:02:27.929 79%. 46 00:02:27.929 --> 00:02:34.139 Harmony up 75%. And then a smaller count is Durban Riddipoer deep 51% 47 00:02:34.295 --> 00:02:38.655 and Pan African Resources came out with a trading update today, 36%. 48 00:02:39.139 --> 00:02:40.139 But here's the star. 49 00:02:40.264 --> 00:02:46.592 I mean, since the start of 2025, 50 00:02:46.593 --> 00:02:51.949 Anglo Gold is up 96%. percent So, how's them apples? 51 00:02:51.950 --> 00:02:55.092 I mean, yeah, we know that. 52 00:02:55.093 --> 00:02:55.793 That is amazing. 53 00:02:55.793 --> 00:03:02.522 And, of course, you're not tempted to say 79% in one year for Goldfields, 75% for 54 00:03:02.522 --> 00:03:04.522 Harmony in one year, 55 00:03:04.522 --> 00:03:06.522 and it's not even half a year gone yet. 56 00:03:06.522 --> 00:03:08.522 Thank you. 57 00:03:08.522 --> 00:03:10.522 I'm taking that, and we'll all go away for a couple of months. 58 00:03:10.522 --> 00:03:12.522 But you're not going to do that. 59 00:03:12.522 --> 00:03:14.522 No, I'm not going to do that. 60 00:03:14.522 --> 00:03:15.459 I feel a little bit on the wild side. 61 00:03:16.115 --> 00:03:17.131 Definitely not going to do that. 62 00:03:17.516 --> 00:03:24.284 because we heard i mean and this is typically what will happen i mean these 63 00:03:24.284 --> 00:03:26.284 these counters as i mean when a company like anglo gold 64 00:03:26.284 --> 00:03:31.147 pretty much double up um in in let's call it a little bit more than than well less 65 00:03:31.147 --> 00:03:33.147 than six months 66 00:03:33.147 --> 00:03:38.952 then they will start to attract attention and they will be included in indices like 67 00:03:38.952 --> 00:03:40.952 russell 3000 russell 68 00:03:40.952 --> 00:03:45.983 1000 russell 2000 the russell mid cap in this index because that's the announcement 69 00:03:45.983 --> 00:03:47.983 that came i mean this 70 00:03:47.983 --> 00:03:52.534 is We've been sort of rumored that Anglo Gold will be included. 71 00:03:52.674 --> 00:03:59.455 And, yeah, today the actual announcement came through that after the market close 72 00:03:59.455 --> 00:04:01.455 on the 27th of June, 73 00:04:01.455 --> 00:04:02.393 so effectively that changes will then take place. 74 00:04:02.394 --> 00:04:03.729 That's a weekend, if I'm not mistaken. 75 00:04:03.730 --> 00:04:05.182 So that will be the 30th of June. 76 00:04:05.713 --> 00:04:11.182 Effectively, 30th of June, Anglo Gold will now be included in those indices. 77 00:04:11.479 --> 00:04:15.119 And why I say it's sort of the worst kept secret. 78 00:04:16.100 --> 00:04:22.006 And that's one of the reasons why the Anglican Gold, in my opinion, outperformed 79 00:04:22.006 --> 00:04:24.006 the likes of the 80 00:04:24.006 --> 00:04:26.029 Goldfields in harmony with that much. 81 00:04:26.068 --> 00:04:29.115 But no, I'm not selling that. 82 00:04:29.232 --> 00:04:30.631 But back to your PGMs. 83 00:04:31.178 --> 00:04:37.545 They definitely I mean, we've often had this conversation, and for the listeners 84 00:04:37.545 --> 00:04:39.545 that weren't participating in that podcast, 85 00:04:39.842 --> 00:04:44.295 we often had this conversation about the deficit, or let's call it the 86 00:04:44.728 --> 00:04:49.473 The demand that's outstripping the supply by quite a handsome margin. 87 00:04:49.531 --> 00:04:52.637 We've seen it in 2023. 88 00:04:52.638 --> 00:04:57.137 And when I say we, that's data provided by the World Platinum Council. 89 00:04:58.645 --> 00:05:01.871 And then last year, it came out again. 90 00:05:02.871 --> 00:05:06.043 And it was quite a handsome deficit. 91 00:05:06.356 --> 00:05:12.856 The demand seriously outstripped the supply in 2024. 92 00:05:12.929 --> 00:05:14.319 And you and I are still having this conversation. 93 00:05:14.320 --> 00:05:16.167 and say, well, What the hell is going on? 94 00:05:16.267 --> 00:05:22.594 I mean, if there's such a big difference, why is the PGM price so distressed? 95 00:05:23.473 --> 00:05:30.379 And yeah, a few weeks ago, we saw the updates that came out from the World 96 00:05:30.379 --> 00:05:32.379 Platinum Council, again, 97 00:05:32.379 --> 00:05:34.559 stating that we're going to see a pretty similar deficit for 2025. 98 00:05:34.950 --> 00:05:39.231 And I think it's just sort of now caught up. 99 00:05:39.372 --> 00:05:41.700 I think the market now realized, wait a minute. 100 00:05:42.231 --> 00:05:44.872 I mean, even President Trump. 101 00:05:45.739 --> 00:05:51.564 came out, and I think this is one of the biggest reasons for the bromance that sort 102 00:05:51.564 --> 00:05:53.564 of went south, 103 00:05:53.568 --> 00:06:00.514 is the fact that he now said, well, EV is not going to be the be-all and end-all, 104 00:06:00.514 --> 00:06:02.514 where we still got, 105 00:06:02.514 --> 00:06:03.701 as he mentioned, the beautiful grunt. 106 00:06:03.857 --> 00:06:09.639 I mean, people, you still want the combustion engines, there's going to be 107 00:06:09.639 --> 00:06:09.699 the hybrids, 108 00:06:09.935 --> 00:06:14.232 and there's going to be some time before we're going to be fully integrated. 109 00:06:14.502 --> 00:06:17.805 towards the EV side. 110 00:06:18.145 --> 00:06:19.406 And there goes the platinum. 111 00:06:19.746 --> 00:06:22.711 Platinum prices, palladium prices went. 112 00:06:24.492 --> 00:06:29.938 But another thing I thought interesting, I mean, when I read the report of the World 113 00:06:29.938 --> 00:06:31.938 Platinum Council, 114 00:06:31.938 --> 00:06:33.938 they actually referred to the jewellery market that suddenly picked up. 115 00:06:34.422 --> 00:06:41.188 Yes, because it used to be, I can remember this, and this is against me now, I bought 116 00:06:41.188 --> 00:06:43.188 a wedding ring. 117 00:06:43.188 --> 00:06:45.169 when platinum was $1,650 an ounce. 118 00:06:45.170 --> 00:06:49.594 And I thought I was getting a bit of a bargain, you know, fast forward. 119 00:06:49.993 --> 00:06:51.157 And I'm not scrapping that thing. 120 00:06:51.579 --> 00:06:53.196 But anyway, yes, it is. 121 00:06:53.501 --> 00:06:56.157 If you look at it relative to gold, it's for nothing. 122 00:06:57.665 --> 00:06:58.365 Yeah. 123 00:06:58.365 --> 00:07:00.540 Yeah, yeah, that's exactly the case. 124 00:07:00.868 --> 00:07:05.571 I mean, we're going to give away our age, but, I mean, you're 100% right. 125 00:07:06.305 --> 00:07:09.993 I mean, there was a time, you know, we know gold is king. 126 00:07:10.493 --> 00:07:11.193 I mean. 127 00:07:11.193 --> 00:07:17.172 But there was a time where, you know, when you look at this specifically in the 128 00:07:17.172 --> 00:07:19.172 jewelry market, where there was sort of a premium. 129 00:07:19.172 --> 00:07:21.172 People tend to say, well, 130 00:07:21.172 --> 00:07:25.583 I actually prefer a platinum ring rather than having a gold ring. 131 00:07:25.864 --> 00:07:32.043 I mean, when you turn the clock back, let's call it 2008. 132 00:07:32.044 --> 00:07:33.153 I'm actually now on the graph. 133 00:07:33.154 --> 00:07:37.918 March 2008, the platinum price. 134 00:07:38.350 --> 00:07:45.097 and i just took the fourth of march i mean i don't know why but fourth of march 135 00:07:45.097 --> 00:07:47.097 platinum price closed at two thousand two 136 00:07:47.097 --> 00:07:52.062 hundred and twenty dollars per ounce on that same day uh the gold price um that 137 00:07:52.062 --> 00:07:54.062 was oh two 138 00:07:54.062 --> 00:07:56.062 thousand let's call it 2002 139 00:07:56.062 --> 00:08:01.117 2020. uh the the gold price was trading pretty much half that level less than off 140 00:08:01.148 --> 00:08:06.792 that level 964 dollars per ounce so and So today, that's inverse. 141 00:08:06.793 --> 00:08:08.973 I mean, the gold price is pretty much trading three times. 142 00:08:09.733 --> 00:08:13.960 So when I read this World Platinum Council report, 143 00:08:14.436 --> 00:08:19.803 and they referred to suddenly there's quite a big pickup in the jewelry market, 144 00:08:19.803 --> 00:08:21.803 it hit me, bang. 145 00:08:21.803 --> 00:08:22.327 I mean, 146 00:08:22.733 --> 00:08:29.639 if you need to pay three times the price to buy a gold ring or gold necklace 147 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:31.639 compared to 148 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:36.368 a platinum ring, some younger… People hot under the colour, 149 00:08:36.450 --> 00:08:41.614 ready to get engaged, might just be enticed to rather go for the platinum. 150 00:08:41.914 --> 00:08:43.336 And also the white metals. 151 00:08:43.337 --> 00:08:50.266 I mean, gold is great and everything and will always be, but there's a sort of a 152 00:08:50.266 --> 00:08:52.266 cool factor as well, isn't there, for a platinum ring? 153 00:08:52.266 --> 00:08:54.266 I don't know the name platinum. 154 00:08:54.266 --> 00:08:56.750 It just seems to me slightly rarer, slightly more unusual than the normal gold 155 00:08:56.750 --> 00:08:56.825 band, 156 00:08:56.825 --> 00:09:00.375 and therefore that extends to the rest of the jewellery market, I would have 157 00:09:00.375 --> 00:09:00.608 thought. 158 00:09:00.608 --> 00:09:01.657 But that's just me being a... 159 00:09:01.902 --> 00:09:04.243 being somebody who actually did it all those years ago. 160 00:09:04.244 --> 00:09:06.585 Well, you did it. 161 00:09:06.803 --> 00:09:07.503 You did it. 162 00:09:07.522 --> 00:09:13.901 And now people know why you did it, because, I mean, platinum was trading at a 163 00:09:13.901 --> 00:09:15.901 much, much higher price. 164 00:09:15.901 --> 00:09:20.753 It was sort of a much bigger thing to have a platinum piece of jewelry compared to 165 00:09:20.784 --> 00:09:21.484 gold. 166 00:09:21.484 --> 00:09:26.128 And even today, I mean, I can't remember which bank they had. 167 00:09:26.284 --> 00:09:31.424 I think it was a black card, and then you've got your silver card, your 168 00:09:31.470 --> 00:09:38.313 gold card and and then the upgrade from that is your platinum card yeah and why is 169 00:09:38.313 --> 00:09:38.592 that the 170 00:09:38.592 --> 00:09:45.211 case because i mean gold gold price is three times the price of platinum but yeah 171 00:09:45.211 --> 00:09:47.211 i think that's that's that's i think why 172 00:09:47.211 --> 00:09:51.039 why are we seeing the moves that we're seeing and and i i might i'm yeah 173 00:09:51.571 --> 00:09:56.778 You never want to say, you know, This is now the start of something big. 174 00:09:56.839 --> 00:10:03.827 But I do get the feeling that this might be the start of a longer bull run for 175 00:10:03.827 --> 00:10:05.827 platinum because it actually 176 00:10:05.827 --> 00:10:07.827 stayed under. 177 00:10:07.827 --> 00:10:12.475 If you look at the platinum price itself, I mean, if we turn the clock back 10 years 178 00:10:12.475 --> 00:10:14.475 ago, 2015, 179 00:10:14.475 --> 00:10:15.210 it was trading $950 per ounce. 180 00:10:15.757 --> 00:10:22.507 Up to, let's call it two weeks ago, three weeks ago, it was trading around about 181 00:10:22.507 --> 00:10:24.507 $950, 182 00:10:24.507 --> 00:10:26.507 $1,000. 183 00:10:26.507 --> 00:10:28.507 Ten years, it did nothing. 184 00:10:28.507 --> 00:10:28.974 I think, watch this space, Lindsay, watch this space. 185 00:10:29.115 --> 00:10:35.357 What I like to look at, Scott, when it comes to something like this, when you get 186 00:10:35.357 --> 00:10:37.357 alerted to suddenly the re-emergence, 187 00:10:37.357 --> 00:10:37.779 the awakening of security, 188 00:10:37.865 --> 00:10:43.568 whether it be the price of a commodity or the price of the company that digs that 189 00:10:43.568 --> 00:10:45.568 commodity out the ground, 190 00:10:45.568 --> 00:10:45.943 I like to look at its personality. 191 00:10:46.427 --> 00:10:48.240 Does it go on and on and on? 192 00:10:48.334 --> 00:10:53.141 In other words, It goes down for ages and it just grinds you into the dust and then 193 00:10:53.141 --> 00:10:53.182 suddenly 194 00:10:53.301 --> 00:10:57.000 uplifts you and goes on onto the upside for ages. 195 00:10:57.305 --> 00:10:58.282 Is platinum like that? 196 00:10:58.283 --> 00:11:04.180 I know if you get a currency like the dollar, the dollar grinds itself higher, 197 00:11:04.180 --> 00:11:06.180 grinds itself lower, 198 00:11:06.180 --> 00:11:08.180 and it can go on for years. 199 00:11:08.180 --> 00:11:10.180 What about platinum? 200 00:11:10.180 --> 00:11:12.180 Maybe we should have a look at that. 201 00:11:12.180 --> 00:11:12.992 I'm trying to find Valterra, which is the former Anglo-American platinum, 202 00:11:12.993 --> 00:11:16.242 and trying to see what the long-term history of that is. 203 00:11:16.492 --> 00:11:17.524 Because it's quite important. 204 00:11:17.525 --> 00:11:18.225 It's almost like... 205 00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:25.906 no financial market anthropology go back and have a look and see what the 206 00:11:25.906 --> 00:11:27.906 personality of this particular 207 00:11:27.906 --> 00:11:31.711 share group is and that's over to you now because you've got the screen in front of 208 00:11:31.711 --> 00:11:33.711 you that works absolutely 209 00:11:33.711 --> 00:11:39.000 i've got the screen in front of me you're lucky you're lucky on that one yeah i mean 210 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:41.000 um valterra 211 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:46.062 trading uh you know today i mean closed at what was it 820 821 one rant levels. 212 00:11:47.125 --> 00:11:48.531 Pretty much the levels it... 213 00:11:48.672 --> 00:11:51.654 traded, if I pull the graph back, 214 00:11:52.677 --> 00:11:56.119 the levels that we've seen in 2023. 215 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:57.861 So we haven't seen a massive movement. 216 00:11:59.361 --> 00:12:05.744 When we actually just go back another year, 2022, I mean, Valtteri and Platz, 217 00:12:06.150 --> 00:12:09.994 they actually closed at what we're looking at. 218 00:12:09.995 --> 00:12:14.478 It was 2,520 rand. 219 00:12:14.619 --> 00:12:18.041 So, I mean, just to show you So we, okay, that was... 220 00:12:19.533 --> 00:12:23.935 But I mean, if you take that period, let's call it 2021 to 2022, 221 00:12:24.357 --> 00:12:26.600 it was trading more or less 2000 Rand. 222 00:12:27.303 --> 00:12:29.162 And today it's trading at 120 Rand. 223 00:12:29.685 --> 00:12:33.850 So when you look at the share price over 10 years, it's pretty much done nothing. 224 00:12:35.271 --> 00:12:37.943 Which means that there's no interest. 225 00:12:37.975 --> 00:12:41.600 And if it starts going into indices, then people have to have it. 226 00:12:41.850 --> 00:12:47.506 I mean, it's like the Anglo-Goldish-Anti-Russell 3000 story on 227 00:12:47.506 --> 00:12:49.506 June the 27th. 228 00:12:49.506 --> 00:12:51.506 People are already buying. 229 00:12:51.506 --> 00:12:52.249 They're not waiting for the 28th or the 27th and saying, right, in we go. 230 00:12:52.628 --> 00:12:53.511 They're already getting in. 231 00:12:53.550 --> 00:12:54.449 That's the case, isn't it? 232 00:12:55.031 --> 00:12:56.011 It's not front running. 233 00:12:56.152 --> 00:12:58.191 It's just prudent management, I suppose. 234 00:12:59.097 --> 00:13:04.035 Yeah, and also, I mean, the heart actually carries an index like the JSE. 235 00:13:04.644 --> 00:13:10.613 Because when we look at something like gold three years ago, four years ago, it 236 00:13:10.613 --> 00:13:12.613 didn't carry a weight of, 237 00:13:12.613 --> 00:13:14.613 and I understand. 238 00:13:14.613 --> 00:13:18.673 to be corrected but i think it was three to four percent the total weight in in the 239 00:13:18.673 --> 00:13:20.673 jse all share um 240 00:13:20.673 --> 00:13:26.045 today it's it's it's most probably close to 13 i mean and and every day we see 241 00:13:26.045 --> 00:13:28.045 these type of movements we see 242 00:13:28.045 --> 00:13:33.084 great movements in the jse i saw i saw a tweet i want to sort of go and confirm 243 00:13:33.084 --> 00:13:35.084 that lindsay i don't know if you've spoken to 244 00:13:35.084 --> 00:13:35.724 one of the other commentators mentioned something similar. 245 00:13:36.349 --> 00:13:41.834 But I saw a tweet over the weekend 246 00:13:42.324 --> 00:13:48.470 The commentator mentioned that the JSE 247 00:13:49.450 --> 00:13:56.415 Allshare has now outperformed the S&P 500 over a five-year 248 00:13:56.478 --> 00:13:57.178 period. 249 00:13:57.900 --> 00:14:00.822 And that will be mighty interesting because I know the 250 00:14:02.837 --> 00:14:05.962 S&P 500 has had a phenomenal five years. 251 00:14:06.009 --> 00:14:09.759 and for the JSE to outperform the S&P 500, I think... 252 00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:14.063 I would like to go and test that commentator's quote. 253 00:14:14.143 --> 00:14:15.325 But what 254 00:14:15.965 --> 00:14:22.712 I can't really take away is the fact that the JSC has been doing well because we've 255 00:14:22.712 --> 00:14:24.712 had some of these 256 00:14:24.712 --> 00:14:27.704 resource counters, gold counters, that's now grown from a 3% to a 13% position. 257 00:14:28.376 --> 00:14:34.110 Don't be surprised if we see a similar trajectory when we see things in the PGM 258 00:14:34.110 --> 00:14:36.110 market because 259 00:14:36.110 --> 00:14:37.172 we're the largest palladium. 260 00:14:37.544 --> 00:14:44.476 produce in the world with the largest rhodium produced in the world with the 261 00:14:44.476 --> 00:14:46.476 second largest platinum produced in 262 00:14:46.476 --> 00:14:50.322 the world this will really be good for the jse as well if This, let's call it, trend 263 00:14:50.322 --> 00:14:52.322 continues. 264 00:14:52.322 --> 00:14:54.322 Let's hope so, Scott. 265 00:14:54.322 --> 00:14:56.322 Suddenly we're getting excited again. 266 00:14:56.322 --> 00:15:00.453 And I'm sure the Treasury Department in South Africa is starting to get rather 267 00:15:00.453 --> 00:15:02.453 excited as well about this sort of 268 00:15:02.453 --> 00:15:04.453 thing. 269 00:15:04.453 --> 00:15:06.133 Because this is hugely important for the finances of the Republic of South Africa. 270 00:15:06.211 --> 00:15:09.226 Because it's not our biggest export, the PGMs. 271 00:15:09.242 --> 00:15:12.226 I think coal holds that, or iron or something. 272 00:15:12.242 --> 00:15:13.398 But anyway, it's right up there. 273 00:15:13.742 --> 00:15:17.742 Certainly more important than gold once it gets going and the price gets up, I think. 274 00:15:17.867 --> 00:15:18.567 For sure. 275 00:15:18.660 --> 00:15:19.360 For sure. 276 00:15:19.401 --> 00:15:20.302 For sure. 277 00:15:20.303 --> 00:15:21.003 I totally agree. 278 00:15:21.523 --> 00:15:22.223 Okay. 279 00:15:22.223 --> 00:15:22.924 What else are we talking about? 280 00:15:23.103 --> 00:15:27.588 I'm talking about a couple of sets of results out today, Pan-African Resources 281 00:15:27.588 --> 00:15:29.588 and Multi-Choice. 282 00:15:29.588 --> 00:15:32.955 Either of those flit across your screen or too small for you to get excited about at 283 00:15:32.955 --> 00:15:33.156 the moment? 284 00:15:34.518 --> 00:15:39.518 I can't let an opportunity to talk about any gold counters go past me. 285 00:15:39.580 --> 00:15:44.627 So, yeah, Pan-African Resources, small little company. 286 00:15:44.628 --> 00:15:47.861 I mean, when you look at their production, and they... 287 00:15:48.532 --> 00:15:55.257 They run about, let's call it, 100,000 ounces per six months. 288 00:15:55.898 --> 00:15:56.902 They came out full year. 289 00:15:59.644 --> 00:16:04.144 Trading stayed more than just a financial year in states that they had. 290 00:16:05.128 --> 00:16:11.878 They actually produced 197 ounces of gold for this 291 00:16:11.956 --> 00:16:12.675 period in June. 292 00:16:13.238 --> 00:16:13.938 June. 293 00:16:14.050 --> 00:16:18.300 And that's going to be shy because when we looked at 294 00:16:18.688 --> 00:16:22.531 they forecast and trading updates or operational updates, 295 00:16:22.891 --> 00:16:28.422 they guided that they should be mining about 205,000, 215,000 ounces. 296 00:16:28.859 --> 00:16:32.383 And it's the fact why we're seeing Pan African also lagging, 297 00:16:34.062 --> 00:16:37.359 let's call it the other four mines quite a bit, 298 00:16:37.906 --> 00:16:44.656 which is disappointing because they do have a very low all-in cost, all-in 299 00:16:44.656 --> 00:16:46.656 sustainable cost. 300 00:16:46.656 --> 00:16:50.675 When you look at the all-in sustainable cost, for the full year 2025, it's 301 00:16:50.675 --> 00:16:52.675 estimated that it will be between, you know, 302 00:16:52.675 --> 00:16:55.858 $1,550 and $1,575 per ounce, and that's low. 303 00:16:56.944 --> 00:17:03.171 And they also talked about when they actually mentioned their forecast, for 304 00:17:03.171 --> 00:17:05.171 2026, 305 00:17:05.171 --> 00:17:06.593 they're expecting it to decline, this all-insustainable cost, 306 00:17:07.030 --> 00:17:13.014 to $1,475 to $1,525 per ounce. 307 00:17:13.499 --> 00:17:14.499 Now, that's crazy. 308 00:17:14.655 --> 00:17:19.373 I mean I mean Let's take the upper band and make it $1,525. 309 00:17:19.813 --> 00:17:22.832 It's coming to trading $3,300 odd. 310 00:17:22.852 --> 00:17:29.356 I mean, that's crazy to think how these mines are pumping cash. 311 00:17:30.614 --> 00:17:36.153 And the mines, usually, or gold mines, usually, let's call it companies, 312 00:17:36.481 --> 00:17:39.153 that was trading at very, very high debt levels. 313 00:17:39.825 --> 00:17:42.825 And, I mean, these companies are just depleting their debt. 314 00:17:43.100 --> 00:17:49.766 immediately just pine african resources they they took away pretty much a third of 315 00:17:49.766 --> 00:17:49.928 their debt 316 00:17:50.289 --> 00:17:57.070 for this financial year they had a 2028 well it's because 2029 million dollar debt 317 00:17:57.594 --> 00:18:02.719 and and now only trading you know 135 million dollars debt so it 318 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:09.688 just shows you how great you know these these companies are doing um now just to 319 00:18:09.688 --> 00:18:11.688 get that production up i mean 320 00:18:11.688 --> 00:18:17.157 they need to get that production up and then get it up very quickly okay well said 321 00:18:17.157 --> 00:18:19.157 these margins are still still astound me 322 00:18:19.157 --> 00:18:22.302 and these share prices reflect it and they still astound me i don't want to get in 323 00:18:22.302 --> 00:18:24.302 the way of the bears when they get hold of it though 324 00:18:24.302 --> 00:18:29.161 whether it be in six months time or six years time the scale can i hope i hope 325 00:18:29.161 --> 00:18:31.161 you're prudent 326 00:18:31.161 --> 00:18:36.177 in your gold portfolio management i know i keep saying it and i'm really boring and 327 00:18:36.177 --> 00:18:38.177 i'm not raining on your parade i just want 328 00:18:38.177 --> 00:18:42.092 you to be careful for you and clients that's all no you need to that's that's 329 00:18:42.092 --> 00:18:44.092 that's the one thing lindsay you 330 00:18:44.092 --> 00:18:44.514 and i have got a few gray hairs so we've got 331 00:18:44.577 --> 00:18:51.421 enough gray hairs to um to to know that the gold's always been what did somebody 332 00:18:51.421 --> 00:18:53.421 say that other 333 00:18:53.421 --> 00:18:58.249 you never invest in gold you trade it so yeah this time is different and i'm not 334 00:18:58.249 --> 00:19:00.249 saying that because i think it's going to be different this time it 335 00:19:00.249 --> 00:19:04.346 has been different this has been an investor's market but anyway We had that 336 00:19:04.346 --> 00:19:06.346 story about the central banks last week. 337 00:19:06.346 --> 00:19:08.346 Let's have a look. 338 00:19:08.346 --> 00:19:10.346 My screen's come back up. 339 00:19:10.346 --> 00:19:12.346 Thank you very much indeed. 340 00:19:12.346 --> 00:19:14.346 The dollar round is 1772. 341 00:19:14.346 --> 00:19:16.346 The British pound against the round is 24 on the noggin. 342 00:19:16.346 --> 00:19:18.178 The euro round is 2035 euro dollar 114.80. 343 00:19:18.694 --> 00:19:22.069 And that is a euro that is stronger by a third of a percent. 344 00:19:22.428 --> 00:19:25.194 And the British pound is 135.40. 345 00:19:25.195 --> 00:19:28.756 Gold price 33.40, which is nice, up $21 an ounce. 346 00:19:28.944 --> 00:19:31.631 Platinum 1268, good as me. 347 00:19:31.724 --> 00:19:36.245 up 6% or $70 an ounce. 348 00:19:36.246 --> 00:19:40.546 I remember just a few weeks ago saying, when is this thing going to go from three 349 00:19:40.546 --> 00:19:42.546 figures to four figures? 350 00:19:42.546 --> 00:19:44.546 Now look at it. 351 00:19:44.546 --> 00:19:45.569 It's gone to four figures with a vengeance, nearly $1,300 an ounce. 352 00:19:46.030 --> 00:19:50.687 And the palladium price is $1,096, just shy of $1,100 an ounce. 353 00:19:51.233 --> 00:19:55.265 And that's up nearly 2% on the day or $21. 354 00:19:55.296 --> 00:19:57.874 The oil price has also been having a bit of a go. 355 00:19:58.872 --> 00:20:03.014 which is not good for South Africa, but good for companies like Sassl. 356 00:20:03.057 --> 00:20:06.358 That's been on a tear, as we've spoken about in recent podcasts. 357 00:20:06.577 --> 00:20:12.022 Brent crude oil, $68.02 per barrel, up 1.75%, and West Texas crude, 358 00:20:12.023 --> 00:20:16.530 $66.27, which is up nearly 2% on the day. 359 00:20:16.671 --> 00:20:17.624 Any other movers there? 360 00:20:18.327 --> 00:20:19.139 No, not really. 361 00:20:19.264 --> 00:20:23.483 But yes, commodities having a little bit of a go, with the dollar being slightly 362 00:20:23.483 --> 00:20:25.483 weaker. 363 00:20:25.483 --> 00:20:27.483 The S&P 500. 364 00:20:27.483 --> 00:20:28.440 It's had a look at the benign inflation and said, OK, we don't mind that. 365 00:20:28.780 --> 00:20:31.602 S&P futures up a little bit. 366 00:20:31.844 --> 00:20:34.028 The June futures going off the board quite soon. 367 00:20:34.325 --> 00:20:35.606 So there'll be some activity there. 368 00:20:35.607 --> 00:20:38.426 But also the US-China trade talks. 369 00:20:38.465 --> 00:20:39.848 Trump says the deal has been done. 370 00:20:40.512 --> 00:20:42.606 But then again, what does he know? 371 00:20:42.872 --> 00:20:49.825 US 10-year, 4.44%, which is three basis points down from yesterday, 372 00:20:50.262 --> 00:20:51.137 yield-wise, that is. 373 00:20:51.168 --> 00:20:53.106 The South African 10-year is... 374 00:20:53.312 --> 00:20:55.594 around about 10.14%, I think. 375 00:20:55.774 --> 00:20:57.055 That screen is playing up. 376 00:20:57.436 --> 00:21:01.397 Bitcoin was threatening to go down through 100,000 a week or so ago, 377 00:21:01.577 --> 00:21:04.905 now threatening to go up through 110,000. 378 00:21:05.124 --> 00:21:07.428 Skulk, any other movements you're seeing there? 379 00:21:08.006 --> 00:21:11.631 And start with the shares, if you would, on the JSE, and I'll give you my list in a 380 00:21:11.631 --> 00:21:11.910 moment. 381 00:21:12.992 --> 00:21:17.217 So, yeah, I mean, yeah, Quilter had a wonderful day. 382 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:19.377 That was up six and a quarter of a percentage. 383 00:21:21.076 --> 00:21:25.826 Yeah, your northern Platinums always stood out again, you know, with Platinum doing 384 00:21:25.826 --> 00:21:25.901 what it's doing. 385 00:21:25.905 --> 00:21:28.686 Four and 4.35% 386 00:21:28.826 --> 00:21:33.045 PPC ship that we've been discussing quite a bit lately. 387 00:21:34.061 --> 00:21:38.623 You know, that is up 4.86%. I'm not going in a specific order. 388 00:21:38.624 --> 00:21:44.066 I'm just looking at a few companies, but I do see your your platinum is in there. 389 00:21:44.146 --> 00:21:47.687 So the Impala Platinum Northern Platinum is definitely there. 390 00:21:47.730 --> 00:21:49.652 Water Sabania is 3.25%. 391 00:21:50.113 --> 00:21:53.719 And then Omnia, I think Omnia brought out either trading statement or 392 00:21:54.375 --> 00:21:57.922 I know it was results that they actually brought out yesterday. 393 00:21:58.398 --> 00:21:59.367 And that looked good. 394 00:21:59.539 --> 00:22:06.133 I mean, fairly lackluster in terms of past 12 months, but the forecast, they said, 395 00:22:06.133 --> 00:22:08.133 well, since the results actually were, 396 00:22:08.133 --> 00:22:09.664 since the year end, things already started to pick up. 397 00:22:10.273 --> 00:22:11.617 So, and... 398 00:22:12.008 --> 00:22:14.349 market liked it yesterday and like it today. 399 00:22:14.371 --> 00:22:16.513 I mean, 4.9% yesterday. 400 00:22:16.732 --> 00:22:17.635 I just want to get back. 401 00:22:17.674 --> 00:22:22.236 Before we continue with the losers and winners, while you were chatting, 402 00:22:22.760 --> 00:22:27.721 I actually decided to go and look at the JSC and the S&P 500. 403 00:22:28.642 --> 00:22:32.814 And we're quick enough to do it in both in the rant. 404 00:22:33.783 --> 00:22:38.408 So if you invested on the 31st of May 405 00:22:39.002 --> 00:22:40.955 2020 into the... 406 00:22:42.049 --> 00:22:43.049 S&P 500, 407 00:22:44.471 --> 00:22:49.334 your portfolio would have grown in RAND terms by 408 00:22:49.639 --> 00:22:51.897 115%. 409 00:22:52.162 --> 00:22:57.022 Now, we always said back in the days, if you can double up your money every five 410 00:22:57.022 --> 00:22:57.206 years, 411 00:22:57.206 --> 00:22:59.381 you've had a fantastic investment. 412 00:22:59.428 --> 00:23:03.944 But yeah, 115% for the S&P 500. 413 00:23:04.787 --> 00:23:06.459 The JSE, wait for it. 414 00:23:06.647 --> 00:23:07.347 Big drumroll. 415 00:23:08.209 --> 00:23:08.909 One in a... 416 00:23:09.172 --> 00:23:16.078 125 percent in randoms in randoms over the exact five years can you convert both of 417 00:23:16.078 --> 00:23:16.439 those 418 00:23:16.439 --> 00:23:23.024 to dollars please don't taste my patents okay well that's 419 00:23:23.149 --> 00:23:29.784 quite good yeah if you're a random investor that is good stuff i mean that's 420 00:23:29.784 --> 00:23:31.784 certainly keeping up with inflation that's for sure No, 421 00:23:31.784 --> 00:23:33.527 it kept up with inflation, but also, I mean, we tend to be very, very hard. 422 00:23:33.549 --> 00:23:36.490 And that's typical South African. 423 00:23:36.752 --> 00:23:43.115 You know, when the proteas sort of drop the ball, they are called chokers. 424 00:23:43.116 --> 00:23:44.357 We are very hard on ourselves, 425 00:23:44.397 --> 00:23:50.787 but I think we don't compliment ourselves equally as much when things go well. 426 00:23:51.147 --> 00:23:55.350 And I know we've been very, very hard on the lackluster performances of South 427 00:23:55.350 --> 00:23:55.565 Africa. 428 00:23:55.897 --> 00:23:59.412 So to all the listeners out there, I mean, we've had a great time. 429 00:23:59.836 --> 00:24:06.581 even outperforming a very extremely bullish S&P 500 over a five-year period. 430 00:24:06.644 --> 00:24:10.148 Ambassador Lowe, thank you very much for that well-received comment. 431 00:24:10.367 --> 00:24:12.109 Multi-choice swings to a full-year loss. 432 00:24:12.929 --> 00:24:16.054 I mentioned multi-choice, but you neatly skirted it. 433 00:24:16.335 --> 00:24:17.570 What is the future of that company? 434 00:24:17.648 --> 00:24:20.054 Maybe one day we'll work it out. 435 00:24:20.117 --> 00:24:22.882 But you have to be nimble in the broadcast market these days. 436 00:24:23.164 --> 00:24:28.460 My shares, you've mentioned Quilt at 6.2% higher, Implats at 5%, Omnia 5% higher. 437 00:24:28.776 --> 00:24:35.422 northam's up 4.3 african rainbow minerals a 3.7 gainer coronation on the downside 438 00:24:35.422 --> 00:24:37.422 that must be an 439 00:24:37.422 --> 00:24:42.246 xdiv stories down six percent scale coronation fund managers yes no yeah 440 00:24:42.246 --> 00:24:44.246 that'll that'll be a 441 00:24:44.246 --> 00:24:48.629 that'll be a a um how do you call it uh xd if you're 100 right i mean we can just 442 00:24:48.629 --> 00:24:50.629 tell you what was 443 00:24:50.629 --> 00:24:54.164 it yes it was to rant on the dot okay Good. 444 00:24:54.605 --> 00:24:56.486 Harmony down nearly 3%. 445 00:24:56.687 --> 00:24:58.170 Aspen down 2.7%. 446 00:24:58.310 --> 00:25:02.490 First round, a 2.25% loser. 447 00:25:02.670 --> 00:25:04.771 And that's about it, Skulk. 448 00:25:04.873 --> 00:25:05.795 It's a quiet time. 449 00:25:05.818 --> 00:25:07.654 It wasn't sell in May and go away. 450 00:25:08.599 --> 00:25:10.513 Maybe it's, I'll try and think of something. 451 00:25:10.576 --> 00:25:14.404 Sell in June if you're a loon or, I don't know, something. 452 00:25:14.482 --> 00:25:16.123 I'll come up with it. 453 00:25:16.364 --> 00:25:23.230 i'll come up with it for next week and it's a big balloon in june for now there 454 00:25:23.230 --> 00:25:25.230 we go that's not bad i'll refer that to balloon okay 455 00:25:25.230 --> 00:25:29.980 very good skunk is a portfolio manager what and a poet yes and an ambassador for 456 00:25:29.980 --> 00:25:30.321 south 457 00:25:30.321 --> 00:25:36.183 african everything south african including your useless uh choking cricket team the 458 00:25:36.183 --> 00:25:38.183 proteas what 459 00:25:38.183 --> 00:25:42.137 was i saying sculp low is a portfolio manager at psg wealth old oak in cape town 460 00:25:42.137 --> 00:25:44.137 and that was the five o'clock shadow 461 00:25:44.137 --> 00:25:49.418 The views and opinions expressed in these podcasts are those of Lindsay Williams and 462 00:25:49.418 --> 00:25:51.418 various contributors and do not reflect the policy, 463 00:25:51.418 --> 00:25:53.165 position or opinion of any other agency, organisation, 464 00:25:53.485 --> 00:25:58.125 employer or company associated with StrictlyBusinessPodcast.com. 465 00:25:58.586 --> 00:26:05.571 Assumptions made on the analyses are not reflective of the position of any other 466 00:26:05.571 --> 00:26:07.571 entity other than the speaker or the author. 467 00:26:07.571 --> 00:26:11.743 And since we are critically thinking human beings, these views are always subject to 468 00:26:11.743 --> 00:26:13.743 change, revision, and revision. 469 00:26:13.743 --> 00:26:13.874 and rethinking at any time. 470 00:26:14.176 --> 00:26:16.609 Please do not hold us to them in perpetuity.