You're listening to Strictly Business Podcast with Lindsay Williams.
The JSC has closed its doors for another day, so it's time for the five o'clock
shadow.
And as always on a Thursday, although recently for various reasons, we haven't
been together, but we are together today.
And when I say we, I mean David Shapiro from Sasson Securities, Viv Govender from
Rand Swiss,
both of whom are in Johannesburg, and I'm here in the Netherlands.
And David Shapiro, I think we have to start with you because welcome back.
You've been on a lengthy...
lengthy field trip to the United States and I know you've got notebooks packed
with insight.
I have.
I was quite conscientious in that respect is that you know if I heard anything or
noted anything
I'd put it down on a piece of paper and I've got lots of scraps of piece of papers
here that I have to put into a view
but I've got there's a lot I have to say about the US and having seen it from
different
angles as well.
And not always what's the word, complimentary.
I think listening to Powell last night, I think he sums it up.
His holding back because of uncertainty really gives you a strong idea of where
markets are and where the
world economy is until such time as there's clarification on his policy.
And it's all over the place.
He's got his apologist.
In fact, I can see Mr.
Nudnik.
at the moment talking on my television screen trying to explain how the great
Trump is managing the portfolio
and brilliant deals that he does.
That's Lutnik, not Nutnik.
Nutnik is a Yiddish word which is not complimentary.
But to an extent, I still think until such time as we've clarified,
you know, they're making a big song and dance now about the deal with the UK.
I think Why the markets are recovered is another issue.
I think a lot had to do with the fall that we saw in the market, his ratings falling
dramatically,
and other issues.
Yes, the results from tech companies help.
But I think the conclusion I've come to,
and I'm taking a bit of time to get to that, is that I think he's lost his grip,
Trump.
I don't think he's as popular as he thinks he is.
I think that America is getting bored with him.
They're tired, you know, this is the best deal that's ever been made, you know, the
superlatives.
And I think that this is going to start building up against him in the time to
come.
I think American corporates are getting angry with him, particularly those that
import from China and so on.
And, you know, in a brief way, trying to get to the point, I think that he's topped
out, you know,
and I don't think he's going to get any more popular than he was.
you know this this is the levels he's saying he's saying more and more bizarre
things i'm just going to stay with you david because you've been there for a few
years he's
saying more and more bizarre things and and you know you don't have to be in
america to hear them but he said things about world war
ii so we should be celebrating this victory day and he said that america was
the greatest um
factor the world war world war ii was won by the allies because of the united states
of of America, the strongest,
most brilliant militarily.
250,000 troops died, etc.
And I thought to myself, on VE Day, with King Charles and Queen Camilla in
Westminster Abbey,
they've probably read these things.
I think, how disrespectful to take credit for something.
Obviously, the Americans came in and they helped after Pearl Harbour and everything,
but to be so vainglorious,
I found a bit offensive, actually, as a British person.
Let's talk and I'll come in after.
Do you guys know that for every single German that the Americans, French, British
and the Allies combined killed,
the Russians killed eight?
Lost eight.
Really?
No, no.
Killed eight.
They lost way more than eight.
Oh, I see.
Yeah.
Oh, I see what you mean.
Oh, yeah.
They lost way more than eight.
their ratios of deaths to German kills were like horrendous.
I mean, they lost, you know, an unbelievable number of people, 25 million
people or so, in a population that wasn't that large.
But I mean, in terms of like the biggest arm, the biggest concentration of the
German military was always fighting the Russians.
D-Day was not actually a important factor in the
war.
It was more a case of the Americans and the British wanted to get to Germany
before the Russians did.
because by that time the russians already steamrolling towards germany and so yeah
look i mean the the russians like i mean
uh i don't think stalin was a good person stalin was as stalin mao and hitler up
there that as a three you know almost tied for
most evil people in the last uh you know a couple hundred years at least uh
but uh the russians paid a huge price of all the americans uh you know told us uh
were not as important for the war as the Russians were.
Let's be very clear about that.
I'm very, like, you know, fervent about the idea that the Russians basically won
World War II.
They definitely sacrificed the most, and they killed the most people.
It's without getting into too much history, it's a very important point you
make, because when they met,
when Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin met in Tehran, They later met in Yalta to
carve up
Germany. But, I mean, this was before that because Stalin was getting very angry.
I don't know if he was there or whether he sent a message or whatever it was.
He was getting very angry that he was losing so many people and they were
messing around and not making invasion plans.
He needed that second front.
And they were forced to do something.
But, I mean, it's a fascinating subject to… to understand.
And Lindsay, to be honest, when you read about the American generals, go read about
them in Italy,
go read about them.
They hated the British.
They fought with Montgomery.
I mean, there was huge tensions between Eisenhower and Montgomery.
But when you read the history, the messes that these American generals made,
the only decent one was Patton.
I mean, but the rest, I don't know.
Well, that's why Hicks is sacking so many of them, maybe.
I would assume it's Patton, because Patton basically, at times, just for pure ego,
did actually do things that were like, no, just shot Montgomery,
just shot the British.
He did things for ego.
I mean, look, I mean, I've seen military studies say that the Russian generals, you
know,
at the end were really, really competent in terms of what they were doing.
But they were just working on a different kind of formula in terms of what they were
trying to do.
They just didn't care about their people as much and were willing to grind them
down.
to get their victories in the end.
But yeah, look, World War II is, obviously because of the time we're talking about
it,
but we are going to talk about World War II.
One thing we're going to mention is the fact that we have lived our entire lives
in the aftermath of World War II, where the American dominance came from that,
where the UN Security Council, of course, was created after that.
It does not make sense to have a UN Security Council in 2025 that does not
have India on board and has basically France and the UK on board,
if you think about it.
Yeah, it's very true.
Times are changing and institutions are not changing with it.
Talking about India and Pakistan, of course, that skirmish.
I mean, these skirmishes are regular.
I'm not saying that this one isn't going to have the potential to flare up into
something.
But again, Trump said when he heard about it, he claimed that he'd heard about it
before.
And in fact, he'd just been told.
And anyway, that's just Trump.
But he said the first thing he said was, it's a shame.
but they have been fighting for decades.
and even centuries.
Well, of course, Pakistan was only formed in 1947, August the 14th.
So how they could have been fighting for centuries, I don't know.
He's just unbelievably stupid, man.
No, but you must
understand
that when it comes to India-Pakistan, you must understand the US has been supporting
Pakistan forever.
When the Pakistanis lost East Pakistan, which is Bangladesh, right?
Pakistan used to be...
eastern west pakistan and bangladesh should be part of pakistan when the
indians helped bangladesh get independence the americans sent
an aircraft carrier to basically kind of stop the the indians from basically going
into like pakistan major and basically made them
you know kind of like agree to like a ceasefire effectively after they had won
uh the pakistanis have been much
more american allies than than you would think they have been you know considering
like you know people like osama bin laden
and stuff but pakistan is definitely have been american allies And now they are
looking to be more Chinese allies.
And apparently the Chinese are the ones supporting them.
And it's never been like a case of just Pakistan versus India.
It's more a case of India versus whichever superpower is working through Pakistan to
kind of do whatever to them.
So right now it's the Chinese.
And that's the main thing here.
And apparently it's disputed, but they say that the Pakistanis shot down five jets,
which seems unlikely unless they were given betam.
equipment by the chinese that's that's what the story is that the yeah you know
they're showing off the chinese uh
planes and uh their capabilities yeah yeah so the chinese the chinese are using and
here's the thing as
well uh beyond uh this is that the real danger here is the water so it's just been
trying
to uh they have an agreement between india and pakistan that's been gone for years
decades in fact that's gone through multiple walls and
they never touched it now they're touching it for the first time which is basically
the agreement to give certain rivers that start in India, they're going to Pakistan,
give all the water to Pakistan.
So even the rivers start in India, and India basically can take all the water,
they give it to Pakistan.
And they've never abrogated that, but now they are.
Okay, so that's one thing.
Pakistan can't survive without those rivers.
It can't survive a huge amount of the agriculture and whatnot.
But the thing is that...
India has the same situation on the opposite side with China, with stuff that
starts in Tibet becoming major in India.
Now, if the Indians do that to Pakistan, the Chinese might have an excuse to do
that to India, and then you have a real flap,
because as much as they care about 26 or something people dying in a shootout,
trust me, when you take away the water supply of a country,
that's when you might have a nuclear war coming about.
How long ago was it?
How many decades ago was it that somebody wrote a book saying the next world war
will be fought over water?
It was quite famous and everyone said, yeah, right.
But maybe given what you've just said, Viv, maybe it will come to pass.
Now, David,
the sell-off that we saw after the so-called Liberation Day tariff moment was
clawed back and it was the best
run in the US stock market for something like 21 years.
Now, is it all over or is it just a reaction to the fact that it was overdone
in the first place and people are saying, Okay,
where to next?
I think there's a bullish case and a bearish case.
I think the bullish case is that we've had very good results.
You heard Powell last night talking about how solid the U.S.
economy is and there's no need for him to do anything.
So underneath it is a very solid economy.
But I think the one point.
that I think is very important is, you know, besides the corporate results,
is that I think the market's beginning to discount Trump.
You know, they're saying those tariff increases that he announced on
April the 2nd in the Rose, none of that's going to come about.
It's going to be watered down significantly.
And I think because he started to lose popularity, his ratings were falling.
We saw the market react viciously.
The dollar reacted, the bond market, whatever.
I think those hurt him.
He won't admit it, but those hurt him.
And I think the other thing is that his attack on Powell caused also further
problems.
So I think he's I see that's what I'm coming back on saying.
I start to see him unwinding, you know, in other words, rolling back quite
dramatically.
And that's the bullish case.
Can it continue?
Yes, if he makes concessions.
If he comes with a clear policy, yes, the market can continue.
But the longer he delays on China, forget about the UK now.
They're going to be buying Boeings and steel.
I don't know what the UK does that's that important.
I don't know what their economy is like.
Lindsay, you know more about it than I do, but I don't think it's that great.
But nevertheless, he's making a big fuss about this.
His main aim, the one that everybody's watching, China.
And he's got to do something there.
Well, the stress meeting this weekend is not going to resolve that.
It's more to say, look, let's get together.
Let's pave the way for talks.
But again, he said in an interview, a live interview from the Oval Office, he said,
we're talking.
We're talking every day.
We spoke this morning.
And then a couple of weeks later, he's saying, no, we haven't been talking.
He said two weeks ago, we've done 200 deals already.
I've done 200 deals, he said, 200 trade deals.
And then again this week he said, I haven't done any deals because I don't
need to do deals.
Why does he behave like this?
It infuriates me.
Give me the headline now.
Trump, very close on numerous deals.
That's him.
And that's rubbish.
That's absolute rubbish.
You know, that everybody's now banging on the door wanting to do deals with him.
Yes, they're going to look and say, what concessions did he make with the UK?
Was there anything worthwhile?
Can we do something similar to it?
But this is all, this is smoke and mirrors with him.
And it's all hubris.
It's all, I don't know, you know, a bluster.
He's got to do the Chinese deal.
That's the one.
Yeah.
And Viv, it does take, they say it takes around 18 months to two years to properly
sign, seal and deliver a trade deal.
And he's saying he's done 200 in six weeks or something.
Even you as a studious fellow.
must get emotionally frustrated by this whole situation.
I think you have to understand that that's probably, I think you're looking at it
from the wrong point of view.
You're thinking of it like logically, someone trying to be an agent for the US.
And I think there's an agent principle problem here you must get over.
I think Trump does not want to get a deal done.
Trump wants to be the person that says yes or no.
You know what I mean?
Trump, I mean, do you think he'd be happy if he gets all these deals done and spends
the next three and a half years of his presidency with nobody listening to him?
I'm falling over.
Honestly, think about it from that point of view.
You know, I honestly do think from his point of view, the more chaos there is,
the more attention that's paid to him,
the more he likes it.
I mean, I remember an interview with Charlie Munger, who recently passed away,
in which he was asked about Trump as president.
And the word he used, I think, was vainglory or vainglorious.
You know what I mean?
And I think that is the kind of thing you must think of in your mind.
Trump isn't quite the perfect agent of the U.S.
in terms of representing the U.S.'s interest at all times.
And sometimes he's representing what he thinks is probably going to feel good for
himself as well, you know, in a roundabout way.
And one of the things that he would like to do is have Carney and have Starmer and
have Macron and have every, like, you know,
leader in the world come to him and kind of play nice, take the photos and, you
know, have to listen to what he says.
and I think the longer that holds out the better he feels about things not the worst
the world
economy does you know what i mean well carney
certainly didn't get run over by by trump at all in fact i think carney came out
better if he'd been allowed to talk
which he wasn't because trump just kept on and on and on but uh carney looked great
uh there's there's two leaders that have
suddenly emerged in the world that i have that
give me hope and it's mertz in germany and it's uh carney in Canada.
I like that.
And I also like the fact that Australia said no to the right wingers and actually
went even,
even further left with Albanese's landslide victory.
The Mexican PM is also, she's okay.
That's, um, I can't remember her name.
It's a complicated one.
Name that.
Yeah.
She's, she's, she's, she's no pushover as well.
And, uh, they give him a run for his money.
And I, I, I just, I, I don't think he's got intelligence.
You know, the only thing he can say, this is the best deal we've ever done.
You know, he knows he's a bad boy.
He's a naughty boy or something.
I mean, the language he uses is almost infantile.
Listen, he can keep us on the, you know, we can extend this podcast for three days
if you want to continue along.
We haven't even touched on the fact that he's being caught out and that he's just
you know he's just gone not a step too far I think he's out of his depth he suddenly
found people that are standing
up to him and saying no you're not going to push this one that far yeah and we have
to draw a line under Trump now unfortunately we
haven't even mentioned Alcatraz we haven't mentioned the
fact that he said during the interview I'm a very artistic person which was
extraordinary try telling Andy Warhol that who he
commissioned to do a lot of artworks for the newly being newly built Trump Tower
and Trump said no
I don't like them they don't go with my color scheme he's really really
artistic yeah you know that in gold yeah it's all done in gold I mean you know
anyway but I want to tell you
one thing Viv, Lindsay, I walked through the whole of New York
I walked through Boston I did a lot of walking I did not see one mega cap very
good
I did not see one person wearing a mega cap.
I probably, if I went to the back of those places, you know, where they sell to
tourists, nobody wears a t-shirt.
Nobody wears anything related to Trump.
Yeah, misrepresentative.
I think if you've gone to Missouri or Mississippi or Alabama or Arkansas or
something like that,
you would have probably been chipping around.
Yeah, but I see what you mean.
There you are.
Okay, Viv, how have the tech stocks been doing?
Obviously not so well, but also have recovered somewhat.
Oh, yeah, significantly.
I mean, if you look at, like we talked about, one of my big holdings, Palantir,
it came down the last couple of days.
But even if you were to look at it over the last, say, month or so,
you're seeing huge returns coming through on that stock, up in the last month, 52%.
Very good.
Even like Tesla has come back.
quite strongly it's down for the year but it's up in the last month quite nicely
nvidia uh you know we talked about microsoft
the one thing i do uh what i point out is the fact that if you look at the companies
that doing well the company's not doing well a lot of the rewards are
coming through i think from what's happening around uh you know um ai
especially uh
so you have like amazon doing really really well in terms of what you think
their overall you know performance is being and then the market looks and says
hey what's happening
with that cloud business and then they They may be making notes.
punishing the company a little bit for that, you know.
And at the same time, you see other companies that have results that you think
are reasonably in line, but then they see their AI sector,
which is pretty much a metaphor for a proxy for their cloud business here.
And then they'd be rewarding the company because of that, you know, our
performance.
So that I think is really key.
So look, I mean, I do think that the market is still looking beyond this
current chaos.
I think that if you had to look maybe 10, 20 years down the line, this period of
time is going to be...
more, except for the fact that we had a big technological revolution happening at
the time.
And I mean, do you really care who was really in charge?
Was it George W.
Bush or Bill Clinton at the start of Google or Amazon's terms?
You know what I mean?
20 years later, those companies are going to be green-grey.
I think tech is going to be the same way.
20 years from now, you might not remember the name of Trump that well in terms of
like who exactly was
there at the start of opening eyes rise or whatever the new company is going to be.
But you will definitely be seeing those companies dominating the world.
SL.
South Africa, David, you're probably the wrong person to go to about South Africa.
So I'll briefly stick with you Viv on this one.
We've had manufacturing output today down 0.8% year on year.
You've got PMI.
mired below 50 and indeed below 45.
So that's not good.
Inflation under control.
So we will get a couple of interest rate cuts, I think, this year from the South
African Reserve Bank.
Bank of England cut today by 2.25%. And the Fed last night, of course,
keeping it on hold, which David has already mentioned.
But Viv, South Africa, it's sort of treading water, isn't it?
I mean, but also you see the round incredibly strong.
Yes.
I mean, not against the euro and the pound, mind you, but against the dollar.
uh we we are basically you know approaching 18 again uh you know so the uh
that is one thing
to look at and i think that's one reason we've seen for instance some of these gold
stocks under pressure today because of the fact that uh you know everything in in in
wrong terms
they were they seeing them you know under a bit of uh issue look with africa i i i'm
i'm
I sadly have lost much hope for a significant recovery in this country.
We've seen the change of the leadership.
We've seen the GNU come into play.
And yet there have been movements like we've seen load shedding diminish to a
large extent, though now they say they might be coming back.
But we have not seen growth recover.
It's been a year and we have not seen growth recover.
And for us to recover in terms of growth rates, we can see 3%, 4%, 5%, not 1.5%
versus 1% or 1.52% versus 1.32%.
We want to see 5% growth rates, 3% growth rates at least.
And I don't think that is foreseeable.
at least in the near term for us in Africa.
David, you'll probably echo those sentiments, won't you?
I've given up a long time on the SA market.
I don't want to take anything away by the efforts that are being made by so many
businesses trying to survive or prosper
in an economy that's going nowhere.
But year after year, I don't know how many years, I think the only decent year we had
was post-COVID, but you've got to consider the one before.
But I mean, take that out the equation.
This country's gone nowhere, and nor is there any effort to get up growth.
They're still so driven by political change, political transition,
those kind of ideological outlooks or strategies.
And until you take that away and say, listen, we want to get this company to
grow,
we want to get this country back to where it should be, nothing's going to happen.
You've got to get rid of the politics and stop worrying about voters and things like
that.
I can't find anything here that really attracts my attention.
I know there are some good numbers from ABM there, but I think that's all bottom
line.
Sorry, not top line stuff.
That's bottom line.
I see volumes down.
Decent.
But, Lindsay, there's nothing to get your teeth into here.
There's no business here that's going to make it on the international stage.
that's going to be one that foreigners are going to want to hold.
And as an emerging market, I think there's better around if you want to go into
emerging markets, which is not where I want to be.
Okay.
Yes, sorry, Viv, go on.
I'll pass, David.
You see that article today about, from Inigo Donners, was quoted about South
Africa's highest,
about these people.
He says there's only 2,850 people in South Africa with assets.
worth more than 50 million rounds.
I saw that.
I saw that, yeah.
Is that all?
That seems a very small number.
From a tax base, what the worry is that if you introduce a wealth tax, they're gone.
They're gone.
Because most of the assets, I think he said, they're offshore.
Yeah, but half of them are gone.
Yeah.
But I'm saying, think of it this way, $50 million is basically, 50 million rounds,
sorry,
is not even $3 million.
No, no.
Not even $3 million.
No.
You're talking about less than 3,000 people in this entire country have more
than $3 million.
Yeah.
I know.
We act richer than we actually are.
And I just want to mention one thing, by the by, on that, is that
I always like to walk through the department stores, Nordstrom or
Bloomingdale's and so on, And you see...
When we look at the luxury sector, you see wealth there, names there that don't even
appear in South Africa.
They wouldn't appear simply because they're beyond the pocket of anybody.
Yes, you've got LVMH and you've got Gucci and places like that because they're bags,
they sell bags.
This is at a different level.
And it just exposes the wealth that is in America.
They had the Met Gala, I think it was on Sunday evening, Monday evening, I don't
know, which is just something else.
And you kind of see, what's the word,
just the fashions, you know, the amount of money that goes in.
It's just something staggering, the amount that they actually raise, the amount of
money they raise.
And we're a poor nation, you know, very poor.
And, and, uh, it's it's almost self-inflicted because we've allowed that
to happen but you know
what this says is is true it's
uh we in in world in world uh terms this is we're not wealthy our wealthy are not
wealth okay that
is a starting number i didn't know that that's a tiny amount of people goodness me
okay gentlemen let's have a look at the markets now the aforementioned round
brought up by viv uh here we go dollar round is 1816 and that's a half a percent
fall for the us stolen
British pound against the RAND, 24.16, and that's a 0.4% fall for the pound.
And the euro has fallen against the RAND to go to 20.48, which is down three
quarters of a percent for the euro.
Euro dollar, 1.1275, the euro down a quarter there.
Gold price in dollar terms has risen by four and a quarter percent, $136.50, if my
screen is right.
Anyway, it's $33.51.
Platinum.
I still can't make it through the four-figure mark.
$9.86, it's up a couple of percent, $20 an ounce, but not much.
Palladium up 1% or $9.87 per ounce,
nearly $10 up on the day.
The oil price has been very, very interesting,
especially for the inflation equation and interest rate policy worldwide.
Brent crude oil at the moment having a good day for a change, up 2.5%.
$62.64 And West Texas crude below 60 still,
$59.71, but also having a good day up nearly 3%.
What else have we got here?
Gas prices up a bit also.
So the energy complex doing well, but otherwise not much.
S&P 500 futures, 56.78, up 0.9%.
US 10-year bond creeping higher again.
The yield, that is, 4.33%.
South African 10-year, 10.83.
and what else we got Bitcoin, we're very close to 100,000 this morning.
Oh, it's back there again now.
Look at that thing.
Above 100.
I don't understand it.
100,770, up nearly 4%.
Some of the major banks and
Bitcoin brokers and things were all asked to get their forecast for 2025.
One went as high as 500,000 in the next year, which is outlandish, of course.
None was below about 150 to 200.
Viv, again, you're studious.
What do you make of it?
Look, I mean, I think I've talked to you guys before that there's two things a
country must have, which is basically a currency and an army.
The only time you see a non-currency taking, you know,
really being strong in any country is when that country's government is weak.
That's why Bitcoin is useful in places like, you know, in Africa where you have
bad governments and so on, in places in Asia.
Even in places like China and Russia, where people want to have the ability to
get their money out of the country.
What Trump is doing with regards to the dollar is weakening the trustworthiness of
the dollar.
And the fact that he's also going after the enforcement arm of places like the IRS
is significant.
Because the only way that Bitcoin becomes $500 million and so on is because people
see ways to get around
certain restrictions and regulations by using Bitcoin.
And that only happens here.
I think you can get away with it because the government is weak.
And that is to be concerned about.
If the weaker the U.S.
enforcement is, the stronger Bitcoin will be.
Very well said.
And also where they want to confiscate assets, where there's a fear that the
assets might be confiscated, as you say, by the IRS, et cetera.
You know, the Russians at the time of the Ukraine or the war, everybody started to,
you know, when you started to take away
Russian assets, that's when they started to buy things like Bitcoin or gold, you
know.
So, yeah, it is as long as Trump's around.
I'm just watching him through the corner of my eye give this press conference and
the headlines that come there.
You know, the whole thing is it's just everything he makes up on the trot.
I don't think there's anything substantial to the headlines that are coming.
And I mean it.
And in any case, you know, or maybe on a parting note on this, I think all these
trade deals, you know what happens?
They make their deals.
There's no detail to it.
And there's a commitment now to buy $10 billion worth of Boeing.
Who's going to buy that?
British Airways, that's an independent company.
You know, who's going to do it?
Do you know what I'm saying?
They've got no control.
The British government does a deal with the American government.
At the end, it's up to the companies themselves to do it.
unless there's something very attractive for them to buy Boeing.
So at the end of the day, I think all of these things just evaporate.
They evaporate into the ether.
You all make these deals, everybody feels happy and nothing's done.
Sorry for being so cynical.
The reason the UK have done it is because, first of all,
the tariffs that were imposed upon the UK were nothing compared to other countries,
particularly China, obviously.
And also, Sakhir Starmer is a simpering sycophant.
And he's touching his arm and everything when he meets him.
Trump, that is.
And he says, oh, by the way, here's an invitation to meet the king.
And you can stay at Balmoral and everything.
And so Trump says, oh, that's good.
We'll give you a favorable trade deal and you'll be first.
But that's the only reason.
It's not consequential.
It really isn't.
I mean, for some British businesses, yes.
But if you really want to know what's going on with trade, I don't know where
you can get it.
But I saw a very decent mini documentary about.
The recent movements of trade through the Los Angeles port, not looking good
whatsoever.
You know, the containers coming in from China are full, 35 percent down on the
number of containers coming in.
So keep an eye on that.
That'll tell you what's going on with trade and tariffs, I think.
Los Angeles.
Wait until the dock workers who voted for him suddenly find that they're out of a
job, you know,
up in Seattle and all the other places, all the other ports.
It's exactly right.
When he starts to interfere with trade from China and the ships are not coming
in, as you say, believe me,
there's going to be consequences.
So it's a very good point you brought up there.
On the JSC today, on the upside, AB InBev, you mentioned that, David, 1.8% higher.
MC Group, MultiChoice, up 1.7%.
It's done absolutely nothing since Canal Plus started nibbling away.
Good luck with that.
Mondi up one and a quarter.
data check 1.1.
SAPI on the downside was down over 10%, closed down just around about 9%, Premier
down 4%, Harmony down 4%,
Telcom down 3%, and Vodacom down nearly 3% as well.
So steady as she goes, gentlemen.
What do you think, Viv?
You're just sticking to your guns, yeah?
Look, I am.
I think that, in fact, I'm doing a presentation really soon about AI, and
I've just looked at the stuff coming out here.
The technology includes new, could easily improve gangbusters.
And the one thing I point to is this, right?
The internet was about communication.
There's no way communication is as important as transport.
And we're about to have transport being revolutionized in the next couple of
years.
Waymo is doing 1.3 million trips a month.
I mean, you can imagine that you and your entire life have not taken 1.3 million
trips.
And Waymo is doing that every month.
And with 1.3 million trips, what that translates to is that these guys are able
to do that much travel with almost no incident that we know about.
There's no big stories about Waymo crashing, Waymo doing this, Waymo doing
that.
That kind of makes me think that the technology is mature.
And if that is true, and we are seeing driverless vehicles coming into play in a
real big way,
expect something at least as big as the internet revolution.
Because think about it.
The number one job in the world is driver.
Forklift driver, truck driver, ship driver, plane driver.
You know what I mean?
And it seems right now that that is something that AI has conquered,
shockingly enough.
Okay.
Well, good luck with the presentation.
David, what are you up to?
I'm still madly.
positive on AI and I think it's the only thing that will keep America great.
Forget about Trump.
It's only going to be the big tech, the mega tech companies.
And you saw their results and I think they're going to continue.
Jensen Wang has become my hero, although he's trying to creep up Trump's backside.
That hurt me, but I forgive him.
I think he's still got a brilliant company and I think the speech that he made
talking about where texts going on at home.
important it is to have data centers, to have the power driving those data centers,
I think is very important.
And that will define who America is, because with the AI that Viv was talking
about,
you need the data centers, you need that kind of data.
And you can only do it if you expand and don't weaken that area.
So I think that's still going to be the future.
And as Viv says, within a year from now, slightly over, when they have the
midterms.
Unfortunately, Mr.
Trump's going to have no power because for whatever reason, the Democrats will come
in,
even though they're weaker than even the Republican Party is at the moment.
Okay.
On that note, gentlemen, thank you very much.
Welcome back, both of you.
And we'll reestablish ourselves as a trio.
Same time next Thursday for the five o'clock shadow.
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