You're listening to Strictly Business Podcast with Lindsay Williams.
The JSC has closed its doors for another day, so it's time for the five o'clock
shadow.
And as always on a Thursday, I have the doubleheader dream team edition with Viv
Govender from Rands Swiss and
David Shapiro from Sasson Securities, both in Johannesburg.
Now, Viv, we were chatting just before David joined us about the extraordinary,
what is it now, three days, four days?
I don't know.
It seems like three years, four years, about the executive orders.
that Mr Trump with his giant felt-tip pen signs into law.
I mean, it's extraordinary.
I mean, apart from the ridiculous 1,500 criminals being pardoned, there's all
sorts of things regarding
DEI and all sorts of other things.
But you've looked deeper into it, not just the headline grabbers, Viv.
Most certainly.
Look, I think the biggest thing he's done beyond the 1,500 people here and there
doesn't really make a difference.
the US probably that's more than that, you know, guilty could go out in any single
week in the US.
But the change he did to Lyndon B.
Johnson's, you know, anti discrimination executive order,
the US government basically can't discriminate in terms of employment.
But the way the phrase it was, you know, you kind of a disparate impact kind of
thing.
So it was Lyndon B.
Johnson and Nixon thereafter, where they basically came out of the thing of
disparate impact.
So you've seen cases in the last couple years, for instance, I
teachers have sued and won because certain groups of teachers underscored lesson
tests and therefore were not hired or something because of that uh well
firemen uh it was who also imagined you know sue and win because you know certain
tests uh had different impacts in different communities
uh not only has he removed it he's removed and replaced it with something new that is
basically going to be pretty much the reverse of what the last thing was and
that's going to affect you know like i said if you look at the amount of people
whose
incomes depend somewhere another depend on the us government from the state to local
level and, you know,
to the national level, it approaches half of the US population in terms of
workforce.
And so there's something that's going to affect all of those people in some way or
another.
Yes, it's certainly been sweeping changes.
He'd obviously been planning it and he'd got those lovely folders and, as I said,
got his felt-tip pens ready to do.
I don't think he was planning it.
I don't think he would have known this stuff.
I think Trump is going out.
and looking at 60 year old uh you know uh legislative orders from uh lindley b
johnson no uh i in fact
i i see a guy literally this is a little clip of vivek ramos farming is no longer
part of doge literally in a
podcast talking to somebody and coming up with this idea literally
you wrote it down but you actually had the idea in a book and you wrote it down you
can just see doing it writing it down and that is the kind of
planning that's coming to here because Trump is not looking at old orders and
thinking, he's thinking change the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America.
That's what he's thinking.
He's not thinking, how can I fundamentally change how the US government works and
know which laws to change?
That's not Trump.
No, well, we know what Trump is.
And David Shapiro is a man after my own heart when it comes to this sort of thing.
David, your impression of the first very few days and hours of Trump's latest
administration?
What's shaken me is that no one's protested.
Exactly.
No, you know, I haven't seen, I read The Atlantic, I've been reading as much as I
can,
I enjoy The Atlantic, having a go at him,
but I haven't seen people storming in the streets and protesting against his
change of genders, you know, no more will gender appear on your passport, it's going
to be sex, either male or female,
simple as that, you know, and any government stories.
No such thing as DEI in any federal government committee.
He's put everybody associated with those committees or those areas of the federal
government on leave,
on paid leave.
He's going to review the whole thing.
But I thought, where's the outcry?
And all they're doing is fawning over him.
If you saw the gallery behind him at...
at the inauguration from Zuckerberg to you name it.
Which I did, yes.
To Bezos and Bezos'new puffed-out wife.
You know, all those kind of people.
No one cares.
And, you know, as you say, as Viv said, these laws have been entrenched since
Lyndon Johnson.
A lot of changes have tried to be introduced, you know, to create equality.
I mean, it's been an ongoing issue.
And in one fell swoop, boop, gone.
And no one cares.
I'm talking about the gallery.
I don't know whether you, you know, I'm just looking, I'm saying, why is no one
protesting?
Why aren't there placards?
Why isn't Washington, isn't there an outcry?
And everybody gets on and says, oh, you know what?
The S&P's up.
We're going to grow.
We're going to create job.
America first.
We'll see.
Okay.
You know what I'm saying?
Okay.
Well, talking about the gallery, and obviously the number one in the gallery is
Elon Musk.
Did you see the close-ups of him?
I mean, I'm not saying that he was on ketamine.
I'm not saying he was on ketamine because who do we know?
I mean, who are we to say that he was drugged up?
But he has a history of drug use.
but he was waving his head all over the place and his eyes are up in the sky that
that is a conversation that apparently
like a week before he announced he had gone for a neck surgery so there was a so
he had surgery on his neck like a week or so before
uh and that is why that is why that happened but he wasn't on ketamine i mean
i i did talk to you guys about in the past that i think he was
but in this case it would probably have to do with the fact that he announced like a
week or two earlier that he had to get the next
surgery done uh
you know um but the speaking of elon musk uh apparently um remember i told you guys
that he's not going
to be caring about um the government spending and whatnot and it's going to be
changing regulations that's the bigger thing for him
apparently that's why vivek ramaswamy was kicked out because ramaswamy was going in
there trying
to do what they were talking about doing apparently around you know cutting
spending and doing all this stuff and musk was much more you know
focused on communications and doing things to help his company
Speaking of which, did you guys see the announcement about the 500?
Yes, this was my main thrust with you, Aviv, because you've got Oracle, SoftBank
and
Chat.
Yeah. Yeah.
And Trump suddenly stands up there at the lectern as he does and says, we're going
to be investing 500 billion, in other words,
half a trillion US dollars in this thing.
And Musk, who he and Altman hate each other.
And they're standing there and then and then Musk says, which was, of course, the
beginning of the end of their relationship.
He says, no, this is a load of rubbish.
They haven't got the money.
He says that SoftBank has only got $10 billion secured.
So where does the $500 billion come from?
But Viv, you know more about this than I do.
So please carry on.
So, OK, and there's a little bit after that.
Certainly, there was enough electricity.
I don't know about the $500 billion.
I know that I was doing $80 billion per year.
okay and the time of the police not one soft for the entire opinions could be over
multiple years so uh 80 billion per year adds up to like a lot
of projects very soon and he says i'm good for the 80 billion you know that's a flex
you know what i mean to say i'm good for my 80
billion i i i'm able to split that kind of money and even musk is admitted that such
has the
money for this afterwards there's a thing about him saying he has such a lot of
money
so this is even though he wasn't on the lectern uh it does appear that a large
chunk of that bankroll comes from um
Microsoft.
And the second part to it is Softbank, I don't know if you've ever seen one of his
pitch books.
It looks like, not to be weird about it, it looks like a teenage kid's wish
board.
He raised a hundred billion dollars from the Saudis.
He's made some really good bets, including things like ARM, which has really done
well for him.
He's made some huge investments.
and done really, really well.
And so even though it's weird and he does all these things, the big swings he does
sometimes do work out.
And he could probably get some kind of money, if not more, from the Saudis.
I mean, they're not going to spend a trillion dollars on a buy, basically.
It's all there already.
I don't think there's anything new.
I don't know why.
Maybe that Oracle's coming in.
But Oracle, in their results, they've made it quite clear.
Maybe the JV.
but in terms of the absolute numbers i don't think there's anything new in in in
those numbers and i think
this one's been writing in this kind of expansion into data centers whoever was
going to do it yeah but
i think what what scares me is
that trump thinks he's doing a deal he's acting like a business yeah we'll take a
bit of this you know with the tick tock yeah we
want to have a share of tick tock as well for government i said what kind of matter
I don't always get TikTok.
Musk.
Yes.
I think the Chinese government is vetting Musk to take over TikTok.
And TikTok, as you know, basically, even though it's not technically Chinese
government, it is the Chinese government, and they have to give the approval for
this.
And so they look at Musk, and if Musk gets TikTok and Twitter...
The interesting thing that Trump said, he said, I don't know why people are so
worried about the Chinese government monitoring
some US teenagers'stupid videos.
That's Donald Trump.
What was he with the Mustang?
Musk is not going to get a bad deal on TikTok because they have no choice.
The Chinese government says yes.
Trump says yes.
He's going to get TikTok at a steal.
And TikTok is worth, you know, a fortune.
I think it's like $200-300 billion in total.
But even if it's just a piece of the American part, it's got to be worth, you
know, $10, $15, maybe $100 billion.
And he's going to get that at a discount.
And then he's going to have TikTok along with, you know, Twitter
X. That is a combination that's very powerful.
But I saw a very interesting interview with a chap on CNN in the early hours,
and he's somebody who's put 20 billion on the table and says,
I'll buy the American division of TikTok so the Chinese government can carry on.
And he said that there's five billion lines of algorithmic formula,
and you're not allowed to use one line of those five billion.
You're not allowed.
And that is what TikTok is all about, those algorithmic formula.
And so they've got to write it all again themselves.
It's not quite as simple as somebody going in and buying it and replicating the
current model, Viv.
No, no.
But the thing is that the model itself, the Chinese government wants the model to
be in place.
But the model is extremely addictive.
TikTok basically has the highest level of addiction, I think, of any of these social
media things.
But I don't think Musk is out there just for the addictiveness.
He's out there for the influence peddling.
You know what I mean?
it's going to be a youtube uh you know competitor it's going to be a facebook
tick tock plus twitter together is is
comparable to like you know facebook it's comparable to you know youtube it's it's
it's going to make him automatically a big player in the in
the uh in that space and even though he may have overpaid he's not gonna be for
tick tock and the thing is that it doesn't matter who wants to buy this thing even if
you put
like 20 billion or 50 billion whatever it is the chinese government has to say yes
and the chinese government
says yes to musk because he has dealings in china already they know they have him
by the proverbial, you know, whatever,
because of his operations in China.
Because he has the factories in China.
He has the operations in China already.
So they know he can't be too against China because of the operations that he has in
China.
So that's why I think, and also Trump, if Musk wants it, he's not going to say no to
Musk.
It's an easy thing for him to say yes, because not only is he going to keep his
friend Elon Musk happy,
still he needs the money for it to make sure that the Congress and Senate do it
once.
So TikTok is going to be very friendly to Trump.
You know, Viv, I was listening to a chap who impressed me immensely.
He was a young fellow by the name of, he's a representative from Massachusetts,
fellow by the name of Jake, I think,
Oshensloss.
I can't pronounce his name.
Harvard man.
And very articulate, exceptionally well-versed in these issues.
And the way that he put it across, because I think he's been on
the kind of committees that um you know the congress committees and that that look
at these things and the way
he spoke this is not a gimme you know you can't get this through congress there's so
many other elements to this
and uh you know he was he was making the comment he says you know tick tock in
china is completely different from tick tock
in america and tick tock in china is educational and tick tock in in uh you
know is is
prying into your personal affairs or your personal life in America.
But he also, you know, he was highly critical to first, obviously he's a
Democrat in that, but, you know,
suggesting that this is not going to go through.
You know, you're not going to be able just to push these things through.
Trump has been speaking about, oh, well, we'll take 40%.
You're going to get, you know, it's got to go through a process.
You can't decide, okay, I'm going to give it to my mates.
Trump won't be able to do it himself, but Elon Musk and his guys will have the
ability to make sure that this is
structured in such a way that there's a law in place at the moment and it has to
be sold.
And he'll be able to, that's the thing, this current Trump administration is not
the same as the last one because now he
has people in there that are much more competent.
See what you want about Musk, see what you want about the kind of people he has in
place right now.
They are not amateurs, they know what they're doing.
If Musk wants to get
TikTok, he will make sure he gets it by sheer
ownership or whatever it needs to be done to make sure that he controls it.
And the thing is that, again, like you say, what's good or what's bad for the
country?
What's good or what's bad for the politician matters more, I think.
And Republicans are going to love the fact that suddenly TikTok is controlled by a
Republican.
You know what I mean?
And that, I think, is why it goes through, not because they are looking at, oh, it's
bad for people or it's not going to give them the right thing.
One more thing before we stop on Trump.
You've got to mention this, that meme coin.
Did you see that thing?
No.
I've got a lovely story for you.
Go, go, go.
Trump launched a meme coin, okay?
Oh, yes.
And also Melania's got one as well.
Right.
I think that was an overstep.
It actually caused the Trump coin to fall, okay?
But Trump launched the meme coin, and it becomes because he holds 80% of the thing,
and it just rockets up after, like, you know, no time.
I think it was at one point in time, what 80% of his total net worth.
So all the other stuff he had was worth basically nothing.
This was what 80% of his total net worth.
Okay.
And you know, the thing that's interesting here is that if you look at what people
are saying about it, and
David has mentioned the fact that, you know, we are seeing, you know, people
coming around and talking about, you know, Congress, whatever,
this is well as the pardoning, even JD Vance.
We'll pardon people, but we won't pardon people that commit violence.
Even the people in Congress, we won't pardon people.
He pardoned everybody.
It was like a blanket pardon, okay?
The Republicans will bend to his will on this thing.
We've already seen that happen with people like Pete Hedges and so on going through,
black people go through.
We've already seen that happen with the stuff that's already gone through the
executive orders.
The kind of stuff happening around TikTok, I would not be surprised if Musk or some,
like Larry Ellison or one of his new friends that were behind him in that
stage.
get a hold of TikTok at a discount and not because it's just about you know
protecting American interests is because
TikTok is now going to be like Twitter is a far more right-leaning thing because
Trump's in power and it has to be like
that to make him happy okay everybody it's just yeah it's scary the whole thing is
scary in my opinion I mean I'm not
I'm not analyzing it as Viv has and you have David but I watch it religiously and
I
I just read the room, I read
Trump. It is extremely disturbing and it's certainly distressing what has happened
and it's only day three
for goodness sake.
It's only three days, four days.
He's talking a little later.
Oh, devil's sake.
I just, and my son, you know, who's a journalist in Australia,
he's with the Sydney, sorry, not with Sydney, with the Financial Review, the
Australian Financial Review.
review the AFR, they wrote a story about a meme coin, or a meme whatever you call it,
and he launched one called Johnny Coin, him, you know, with the newspaper.
Within a few minutes it had run up to $6 million.
$6 million,
and came back to a value now of around about $100,000.
As a joke, this was an article that he says was launched in so many different
places.
countries and so many different languages.
You know, it's insane.
Sorry.
The guy that runs Ethereum is called Vitalik, right?
And he basically is considered to be like the genius in the commerce of crypto.
And he complains about the fact that every time somebody launches one of these meme
currencies, what they do is they give him a whole chunk of it,
trying to associate themselves with him.
So like every so often he gets like a message saying, somebody's effectively
giving you like a couple of tens of billions of dollars.
Because just the association with him means that the meme coin has some
credibility and therefore is
worth billions of dollars.
And he complains about the fact that people are scabbing people by giving him
billions of dollars.
Anyway, that's the world.
I still don't know what it is.
And you can say as much as you like, Viv, about it being 80% of Donald Trump's
wealth, but he can't redeem it.
And next week it'll be 20% of his wealth because it's collapsed.
There's no way you can go out there and say...
This term they use is called rug pulling, right?
So what they do is that you release it into the public, you hold your assets
behind,
and what happens is then you start selling at some crisp-fab time.
And I think he started selling.
If you look back at that thing, okay, the share price basically halved in like a
couple of seconds a few days ago.
That was probably him selling a whole bunch of it into the market.
He's gotten out probably...
millions, maybe even hundreds of millions of dollars, all of this thing already.
And you think, okay, it can't be true, but there's people who put real money into it
at like, you know, 70, and now it's about 40.
Okay.
And the kind of movements you see, these big drops of like, you know, 70 to like 40
in like a couple of minutes here, that is basically some big success into it.
And that's probably him.
It's a scam in other words, it's a Ponzi scheme.
It's a scam, it's a scam.
This is a total scam.
He's done this, and like I said, it cost him zero to create it.
Literally, you can create it like David's son created it for nothing, and he made
probably, like I said,
if not tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars, maybe even a billion
plus dollars of this thing possible, but at least...
tens of billions tens of millions of dollars on the thing it's sickening i'm
sorry i'm sorry i have no idea what either of you are
talking about i just for me it's just going to be david i have no idea what it
is and melania's got a meme is the memory you know the whole thing is so concerned
you know so concerning i
think more concerning than the people sitting in the white house you
know and and and their antics and what they're up to where this is leading
it's quite scary so i just watched the market lindsay yes we're talking about
that today she's down yeah talking about
that let me go through it because you've got to talk about your business day
article because these are things i understand i understand that one us dollar
buys you 18.56 south african rooms okay that is easy for me to understand the
round against the round is 2286 and the euro round is 1930 the euro dollar is
103.95
british pound against the us dollar 123.20 Gold price 27.43, which is up a bit.
Platinum is up 13 to 960.
Palladium has gone into four figures again, 1,014, which is up $13.50.
Other commodities, I don't know what drill baby drill is doing for Trump, but the oil
price is still quite high,
$79.54, which is up three-quarters of a percent.
That's Brent crude.
And West Texas crude is $75.87, which is up 0.6%.
Natural gas price is up 2% to $4.04.
That's quite a move.
And what else have we got here?
Nothing really, but S&P 500 futures, the high on the futures, all-time high, 6178.
Currently 6,116.
US 10-year Treasury bond yield, still up there, 4.65%.
And the South African 10-year is 9.25%.
Bitcoin, been speaking about memes and coins and stuff, I just don't know.
104,000 and a small amount of change.
down very slightly and yeah that's about it david you wrote an article in business
day which you
posted on linkedin yeah that's what we would you were telling me on monday just
sort of go through it for viv's
benefit if you would what
this is uh there's half truths in what i wrote i mean when i say half truths i
wrote it like a novelist i mean you
know the characters coming back from holiday which is true people did get hold
of me complaining about
you know why or uh we haven't kept up with the uh the s&p by last year they
underperformed and this happens you know and i always say every december i love it
because people go to the
beach and every i said every man uh
you know and his dog well i used the the stanley cup you know because everybody now
walks around with that stanley cup you know what those are
lindsey no you know that you know Everybody goes to gym with this Stanley
Cup,
which is quite an expensive quencher that keeps your water cold, you know,
and that's the thing you walk around with drinking or sipping out of this.
So they all come back from their holidays and discussing the market with their
friends on the beach.
And I always say, I don't, not one of my clients, you know,
every one of my clients has got a friend that did better than him.
That's it.
Why?
Yeah, right.
So, which is true.
And so the whole thing is that what it's all about is NVIDIA.
You either had NVIDIA or not NVIDIA, you know.
And also the risks that I try to highlight is that last year, the S&P, which was up
23%, really driven by seven stocks or eight stocks, whatever it was, take those
away,
the S&P was up 12 or 13%.
So I think from any kind of...
risk approach, you know, if you're managing a portfolio, you would never have
put all your stocks or,
you know, all the money in a handful of stocks unless you're taking high risk.
Now, you can take high risk for yourself, but you can't do it if you're running a
pension fund or provident fund.
You have to have a certain, you know,
you've got to do risk analysis and you've also got to be a lot more careful about
what you do with people's money,
especially savings money.
So that's what I was trying to compare.
And saying yes, you know, we're going into this year, it's going to be a pretty
decent year, I think, as well.
But you can't carry on just waiting in tech shares,
because what history has taught us is that things can go wrong and do go wrong.
We've seen it throughout the history of the stock market, particularly in
technology.
And if you look back...
And Vivian, you will remember IBM's computers which were replaced,
or IBM's systems were replaced by Microsoft, you know,
Windows 95 and so on, or Windows and then 95 and so on.
Intel, Cisco, all of those things change, and therefore you've got to remain very
vigilant,
very agile if you're going to go into the tech market.
And we've got so many developments, you heard.
You know, you've listened to a lot to what Viv has to say, and he highlights just how
things are,
you know, how different things are and how difficult things are.
So that's my message.
Yes, I'm a tech freak.
I love tech, but you've got to remain, you've got to have your feet on the
ground.
So, but the whole thing, sorry to keep going on, but, you know, with NVIDIA, what
I also try to highlight,
and during 22, You know, post-COVID with NVIDIA,
that was a time that they had built up huge stocks because of blockchain and huge
stocks because of gaming.
When people were stuck at home, there was a lot of computer buying and so on, and
they were stuck with a lot of excess stock.
or certainly through their supply channels, no one was buying because they
were stuck with stocks.
So NVIDIA, which had gone up 450% over a few years, dropped 60%.
Now, it doesn't mean 450 minus 60.
It's 60% of that 450, you know.
So it came down crashing, and everybody,
all the clients that we had put them into NVIDIA kept saying, why we got NVIDIA?
Why you got NVIDIA, you know?
And then a year later, when ChatGPT was launched and it became one of the hot
stocks,
everybody comes back to us and saying, why aren't we in video?
When you lose money, David, it's your fault.
When you make money and they're at a briar on the beach, it was all to do with them.
We know that.
Now, here's a quote for you, Viv.
I'm not worried about our relations.
I spoke to him soon after he was elected, congratulated him.
And we both said we are looking forward to continued dealings and engagements.
And that was on the fringe of the World Economic Forum in Davos when this
particular person was on the phone.
Who who was from whom was that quote?
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
It's your man.
It's sort of a remote pose.
And when I can just see Trump on the phone down and saying, who's this guy?
He's from one of those asshole countries.
in Africa or something.
I can't see Trump ever visiting Africa.
I can't see Trump picking up the phone to Ramaphosa and saying, yeah, you really are
very important because you've got PGMs and everything and we need
them.
I just don't see it happening.
It's just a lot of nonsense.
But anyway, maybe I'm being pessimistic.
I can't compose my idea with Trump because I think people now know what I'm talking
about,
which is basically flattering outrageously.
And I think Ramaphosa understands that.
is the thing about you know i think biden was the first president and i don't know
how many each was decades the u.s president sitting u.s
president to visit africa and he did it like in his last month before he went to
angola yeah
yeah yeah we don't even appear on the on the radar of these guys unfortunately but
yeah i i i do worry about like you said like the the um the craziness of Trump,
but I do think that now people know what to do.
And unfortunately, what they know how to do is how to flatter him and give it to
whatever he wants to.
And that is not exactly the stress of people who are great preachers for the
country or for the world.
I worry more about it.
As you know, in fact, there was a good article by Peter Bruce this morning just
highlighting the worry
is more Rubio than Trump.
Rubio, who's the foreign secretary now,
is an extremely aware man and very pro-Israel,
whether you like it or not.
Those are his sentiments that he's expressed.
And I don't think we've exactly endeared ourselves in that area, South Africa.
And the other point he made up was that he raised, Peter,
Peter Bruce raised that whole issue round about the ship in Simon's town.
loading and that's never been explained properly so I but but the point is that
South Africa doesn't exist and Trump if he takes this attitude towards his allies can
you imagine what he's going to take towards Africa
you know he he's his whole point
I just sorry to go on I heard him about Canada and he kept saying why do we need
Canada why do we need their cars
why do we need their milk is milk you mentioned milk yes And he was saying, we
don't need it.
All their forests.
He also said the forests.
He said, we've got beautiful forests.
We don't need their timber.
He's a nutter.
Totally.
But, I mean, you've got to sit in front of him, and he's not scared to bring up these
things.
He's not there for the photo shoot.
Okay, let's get back to reality now.
This is all like Alice in Wonderland stuff.
On the episode on the JSC today, British American tobacco was the one.
point six percent winner david's uh one of david's favorites richmond four percent uh
sebastian stillwater managed a
just over one percent gain a resilient the property company at one point one percent
as well downside i don't know how many of these ex uh div what i want
to highlight
is a sassel down four point four and two-thirds outshines down 3.8 it's a bad
bad
what's the name of that trading uh trading update yeah Yeah,
I don't know how with the oil price $80 a barrel for Brent crude and the RAND still
relatively weak,
how SAS will continue to be.
It's an 87 RAND share for God's sake.
David, please give us the closing JSE indices and the value trading.
We've gone into negative territory now.
So the oil share index is right across the board down.
and quite severe losses.
The All Share Index was down 0.84% at 83944.
So that makes us negative for the year.
All the major indices were down, resources down 1.09%, just spread evenly amongst all
the miners.
Banks as well, under a bit of pressure, down 1.6%.
And the industrials also down slightly.
They were helped up by British American Tobacco, Richemont and so on, but those
are not...
you know those are not local stocks um lindsay just to to to give what we are
seeing now
certainly what we're picking up and it's evident again there's been quite big set
off in retails okay you know we had quick results
mr price results yet there's just this persistent um
selling of of retail it's after last year we had very good gains there i think the
reality is biting and
uh you know either profit taking or looking elsewhere for uh for gains.
Okay, value traded, what was it did you say?
First under 20 billion, I'll give you the exact numbers yeah, around about yeah,
about 18,
19 billion and for the second day in the row, First Rand has been the top trader,
out-surpassing NASPES.
NASPES is still there but quite a bit of interest in First Rand and Capitec,
another one that has been among the high traders over the last few days.
Okay, very good.
Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time as always.
Viv Govender is from Ransuisse and David Shapiro from Sasson
Securities.
That was the 5
o'clock
shadow.
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