WEBVTT

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You're listening to Strictly Business
Podcast with Lindsay Williams.

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JSC has closed its doors for another day,
so it's time for the five o'clock shadow.

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And as it's a Wednesday, it of course is
Skullclo,

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Portfolio Manager at PSG Wealth Old Oak in
Cape Town.

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Skullclo, talk about gold later.

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And I know you get very excited when I
talk about it.

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No, we'll do it later.

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Calm down.

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Okay.

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Let's talk about the...

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the uh sends news on the on the jsc eoh
and famous brands are either of any

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interest to you

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can you comment briefly on either of them
no i mean i i really can't um comment on

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either

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because they're fairly small companies
like

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both i mean we've we've we've chatted
about um both companies over the time eoh

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been uh the the

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darling let's call it um of the 2000s and
then went from an

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absolute zero to an absolute zero.

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Since then, they've had a change of guard.

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And it does seem like they've sort of had
a bit of a

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180, not making losses anymore.

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We can see there's some progress.

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And yeah, today, I think that the progress
sort of paid off.

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Share price up 9%.

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And then Faber's Brands, man, what a...

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And this is a company that's been in
specifically social media.

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I know there's quite a few commentators
that's been talking about it, talking

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famous brands up,

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saying that this is maybe something to
have a look at.

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For listeners out there that don't know
them, I mean, they've got, as the name

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implies, famous brands like

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Wimpy, Steers, Debonairs, those types of
companies.

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I like Steers.

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I really like Steers.

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I must admit, of those ones, Steers is the
one that really stands out.

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a really good burger skulk definitely and
as as it's uh as it wednesday today i'm

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usually on on a wednesday

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we'll we'll just call it the the wacky
wednesday show today because uh i think

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that's what they're known for i mean

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the the results six month results not a
lot of guidance as mentioned it's not a

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company that's really

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really that well covered um uh but but but
in general i don't think it looked too bad

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you know

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headlines and especially it increased by
nine

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9.5% up from 1 rand 99 to 2 rand 18.

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That looked good.

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Revenue up 2%.

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In an environment where interest rates is
high, we tend to think this is a company

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that would be under pressure,

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and they didn't.

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Yes, the revenue didn't really grow.

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That is showing you the environment we're
in.

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But the fact that they still managed to
grow their earnings per share just shows

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that management really did a few things
right.

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in a wrong environment and then lastly the
dividend per share also increased nine

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nine percent that's what we as a shell
this

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year you want to see uh one round 38 last
year this year it's going to be you know

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this time around it's going to be one
round 50 so in general i thought

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not too bad not too bad uh results for
both both sides not something that

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interests you not it's going to be sg

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wealth radar at all no i mean i'm sorry
yeah okay in that case i had a really

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interesting chat with a

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chap who'd just been to the denver Gold
Forum, or whatever the name of it was.

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Anyway, it's an annual gold conference.

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Most of the commodity conferences cover
everything, like the mining in Darbar in

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Cape Town and the diggers and dealers in
Australia.

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This one is purely gold.

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They're thinking of diversifying it to
include other commodities, but for now

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it's just gold.

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And it was very interesting because he
said last year he went and there were

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1,500 delegates.

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This year, last year 1,500, this year only
900.

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And I thought, well, this is a bit odd.

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And he said there was a sort of note of
caution.

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And I suppose when you see the gold price
above 2700, you think to yourself,

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maybe now is not the time to be in there.

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Maybe this is telling us something, that
the price is now getting a little bit too

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frothy.

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And when you see a gold chart on CNN or
CNBC or something, you think, wait a

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second, that's a little bit too much.

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What is your view now?

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Are you starting to get cautious yourself?

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and putting in some protection skunk no i
i think i'm not um because remember

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you know some of my main drivers you know
for including um gold into my portfolio

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is still very much at play uh you know
we're still sitting with a um

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with a dixie or let's call it u.s dollar
index now high hell on last week you know

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104. so the dollar is still looking you
know fairly strong i would say and a lot

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of people say it's not your

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114s 118s but but i still believe that the
dollar um could be under

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pressure i mean if you look at you know
lately the the debt levels that's been

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released from the us and a lot of people

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you know still now starting to ask the
question how will they be able to to

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service this debt going forward you know
in the future and then

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a lot of this this debt are now going to
be rolling over a lot of these

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uh world financial crisis uh debt that
they they back then created not going to

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roll over and they will need to

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to um let's call it what do you call it
free debt or they'll need to

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um refinance refinance these debt again
and they'll have to do it at much higher

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levels I can go on I just said the dollar
firstly

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secondly I mean I don't know what your
feeling is regarding the the due political

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unrest but

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I mean, I'm getting the feeling when I
look at every...

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Exactly.

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It's just every day, it feels like it's
small things, but it's sort of escalating.

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And again,

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gold would most probably be one of your
best hedges against any further

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geopolitical

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escalation.

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Something that really struck me yesterday
is that, actually it was two days ago,

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it was first announced that North Korea
has sent 12,000...

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of its military personnel to Russia to
fight in the Ukraine war.

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And South Korea took exception to this and
said, we are now going to send weapons to

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Ukraine.

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So now we've got North Korea against South
Korea because of Russia versus Ukraine. As

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you quite rightly say,

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that was the actual trigger for me getting
even more scared than I was before, Skulk.

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I don't like it.

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And with the US election coming up...

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as i said to you off air i'm looking
forward to christmas and you said we got

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to get through november

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1st and it's going to be difficult it's
going to be a tough one it's going to be a

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tough one

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um i don't think i don't i mean i i don't
want to call this the the start of world

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war iii because i i surely hope and

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believe that you know sanity will
eventually prevail but as

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we sit here i mean israel uh iran um that
whole Palestine area,

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it's really, really very, very nervous
around that area.

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As you just mentioned, more countries are
getting involved now in the Ukraine-Russia

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war.

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Now, do I feel that gold is finished?

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No.

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What I see, I mean, let's be honest.

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I mean, a lot of people, you know, ask me
this question.

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So we're sitting $2,700 at the beginning
of the year.

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if you told me um you know we're going to
see 2

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700 i said i'll take it i mean definitely
i'll take it but now as i sit here

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i i don't see a massive retracement in
gold and by saying that you're looking at

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these

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gold miners that is currently uh

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mining this this gold at way lower levels
when we're talking some some of the

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international mines are mining at

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1600 1700

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dollars per ounce so they're making a heap
load of cash and if you say this this this

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let's call it due political

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unrest this um economical worry because we
still we're still having a debate are we

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going to see a hard landing soft

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landing you know while we we're still
talking about landings um i would just

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very much hold on to my gold

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And, you know, while the gold prices stay
at these levels, the miners are definitely

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going to high-five each other.

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Be very careful with the central bank
situation because the buyers of gold and

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the reason that the gold price is 2,700
plus

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is because mainly of big, big buying from
central banks.

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And in May, China said we can't buy any
more at these levels.

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So, and that was what, six months ago?

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It was May six months ago, four, five
months ago?

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Anyway, a few months ago.

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So be very careful.

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that the central banks suddenly say,
that's enough now.

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We've stocked up.

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We're not selling, but we're not buying
anymore.

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And that could create a little bit of a
sell-off,

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should geopolitics and should US politics
play ball.

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So that's all I would say.

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And if you were, and be honest now,

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if you were the head of the Treasury
Department of a major gold mining company,

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and they said 2,700, we're producing at
1,600.

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you'd say, okay, let's put in 20, 30%
hedge for the future,

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collar and cuff option strategy or
something.

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You would do it.

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It would be imprudent of you not to,
Skulk.

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Yeah, okay, so there's two answers to
that.

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Number one.

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You would most probably, you know, if you
have that view and you say, well, I do

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think we're calling tops,

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we're calling tops on current levels, you
would most probably do that.

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But remember, gold fields in England, gold
found in the top,

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I think top eight or top seven largest
mines in the world, gold mines in the

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world.

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and both these companies over the past two
months what did they announce they didn't

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announce that they're hedging their gold

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which they weren't announced by the way
but they announced that they announced you

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know two of the largest transactions these

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companies made in many years mergers

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so so when i look at a i can't remember i
think i think what was it um

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1.5 billion dollar

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deal and and gold feels slightly less but
i mean if you look at if if they were

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skeptical

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on the gold price being at elevated levels
i can promise you they would not be doing

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you know these

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sizable mergers at current gold levels
unless

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they feel wait a minute yeah i don't think
the gold price is coming back anytime soon

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in actual fact there's quite a

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few Big investment houses, that's calling
to $3,000 now and $3,500.

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Oh, that's got to be interesting.

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My response to that is that the commodity
companies are terrible investors.

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They buy at the top and they sell at the
bottom.

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They buy when everything's going well.

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They buy when lithium is going well.

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They open a lithium mine and it collapses.

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And if there are mergers going on in the
gold market, then to me as a cynic,

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There is, that's a red flag, but that's
just me.

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I mean, it could go to $10,000 an ounce if
something nasty happens.

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But $3,000 is perfectly reasonable.

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But you're staying in, Skulk.

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That's the bottom line.

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Yeah, no, no, I'm definitely staying in.

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And just to, I mean, for listeners out
there, you know, thinking I'm currently

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betting the farm, because I am a, I mean,

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I've been a verbal gold bull for many,
many moons, actually for many years.

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And I haven't always been one, just by the
way.

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So I've sort of been one of late.

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But I did an analysis many, many years
ago.

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And I think we chatted about it.

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And I think it was done, a report that
I've done in 2020, 2021.

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We're just sure that if you take a, let's
call it a 20,

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80% investment in the FTSE All share.

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and a 20% position in gold.

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Over the school of the past 15 years to
that point, just by the way, I think now

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it would be much, much better.

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But to that point, which was run about
2021, over a 15-year period,

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which included the COVID scenario and also
included the massive,

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massive world financial crisis crash in
2008, what it showed you, sorry, it was 20

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years.

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Over that 20-year period,

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If you had an Aussie position and an 80%
Aussie and a 20% gold,

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you would have yielded exactly the same
return.

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Exactly.

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Not bad.

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But, yeah, exactly.

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And a lot of people would say, but gold
had a tarot time there in the early

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2000s, and then again after 2012.

234
00:13:13.366 --> 00:13:18.110
But what was beautiful was that same,
let's call it return,

235
00:13:18.970 --> 00:13:20.532
did from a risk point of view.

236
00:13:20.908 --> 00:13:27.711
you'll a much lower volatility and also
the drawdown and for again for the

237
00:13:27.711 --> 00:13:29.711
listeners out there every time we had a

238
00:13:29.711 --> 00:13:33.993
massive pullback because you had this gold
that that sort of uh combat the pullback

239
00:13:33.993 --> 00:13:35.993
in the market

240
00:13:35.993 --> 00:13:36.835
saw that you didn't lose

241
00:13:36.995 --> 00:13:43.937
the amount of uh capital over those those
big retracements so i just i just love

242
00:13:43.937 --> 00:13:45.937
using it as

243
00:13:45.937 --> 00:13:50.020
an hedge it's one of those extra you know
pieces of ammunition you can put put in

244
00:13:50.020 --> 00:13:52.020
your portfolio and i use it

245
00:13:52.020 --> 00:13:54.020
Very good.

246
00:13:54.020 --> 00:13:56.020
You've made a convincing argument.

247
00:13:56.020 --> 00:13:58.020
Let's have a look at some markets now.

248
00:13:58.020 --> 00:14:00.020
Dollar ran 1785.

249
00:14:00.020 --> 00:14:02.020
British pound against the ran 2311.

250
00:14:02.020 --> 00:14:04.020
And the euro ran 1925.

251
00:14:04.020 --> 00:14:06.637
Euro dollar 107.85, which is a euro that's
weaker by about a third of a percent.

252
00:14:06.677 --> 00:14:09.959
British pound 129.50.

253
00:14:09.959 --> 00:14:16.022
Gold price, which I think we may have
mentioned already, 2713, which is down

254
00:14:16.022 --> 00:14:18.022
$31.

255
00:14:18.022 --> 00:14:19.284
But, you know, it's got to take a breather
occasionally.

256
00:14:19.804 --> 00:14:23.068
The platinum price is down a fiver to
$1,028.

257
00:14:23.328 --> 00:14:28.133
And the palladium price, also in four
figures, $1,061, which is also down

258
00:14:28.674 --> 00:14:31.937
$13.50. But commodities were the precious
metals anyway.

259
00:14:32.498 --> 00:14:33.819
Doing rather well, thank you very much.

260
00:14:33.859 --> 00:14:34.941
What about other commodities?

261
00:14:35.001 --> 00:14:35.922
Let's have a look at...

262
00:14:36.754 --> 00:14:43.377
crude oil uh brent crude is down 0.6
percent to 75.57 the west texas

263
00:14:43.537 --> 00:14:50.420
variety 71.28 also around about 0.6
percent weaker s p

264
00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:55.442
500 futures 5 868 which is no 5

265
00:14:55.462 --> 00:15:00.984
853 now down two thirds of a percent so

266
00:15:01.124 --> 00:15:07.667
a little bit of nervousness coming in
there which is completely understandable

267
00:15:07.667 --> 00:15:09.667
US 10-year Treasury bond yield 4.25%.

268
00:15:09.667 --> 00:15:14.029
The South African 10-year hasn't had a
great time recently, 9.64%.

269
00:15:14.629 --> 00:15:17.670
It was below 9% not so long ago.

270
00:15:18.410 --> 00:15:19.370
And what else have we got?

271
00:15:19.730 --> 00:15:20.431
That's about it.

272
00:15:20.431 --> 00:15:21.851
What about the JSE today?

273
00:15:21.931 --> 00:15:23.932
Not looking so great, Scout.

274
00:15:24.492 --> 00:15:27.733
Before we go to the indices, any shares
that stood out for you?

275
00:15:28.193 --> 00:15:31.854
No, it was just one of those days where we
didn't have a...

276
00:15:32.274 --> 00:15:39.236
a lot a lot of movements i mean you
mentioned it you know gold gold um

277
00:15:39.236 --> 00:15:41.236
retraced today um that was the gold

278
00:15:41.236 --> 00:15:45.998
price so so within the let's call it
losers column you had your your likes of

279
00:15:45.998 --> 00:15:47.998
your harmonies and and pan-african

280
00:15:47.998 --> 00:15:50.739
resources also some some retracement and
some of your some of your goals where

281
00:15:50.739 --> 00:15:50.879
there was some

282
00:15:51.079 --> 00:15:54.320
gold fields were trading i think one
percent up uh once that this

283
00:15:54.360 --> 00:16:01.322
morning and eventually ended down uh quite
a bit the one that stood out for me and

284
00:16:01.322 --> 00:16:03.322
that's not only today um

285
00:16:03.322 --> 00:16:04.184
But of late, it's Sassl.

286
00:16:04.224 --> 00:16:08.487
I mean, every time you think Sassl can't
go any lower.

287
00:16:08.907 --> 00:16:10.508
Down it goes.

288
00:16:10.508 --> 00:16:11.208
There we go.

289
00:16:11.208 --> 00:16:13.070
It's like, how low can you go?

290
00:16:13.230 --> 00:16:16.332
And it seems like it's going to be Sassl
low.

291
00:16:17.133 --> 00:16:21.776
And one of my colleagues made the comment
this morning and also yesterday.

292
00:16:22.737 --> 00:16:27.400
He said, I mean, we're now slowly
approaching the levels that we've seen,

293
00:16:27.680 --> 00:16:29.922
the stress levels that we've seen in
COVID.

294
00:16:29.922 --> 00:16:30.622
But not.

295
00:16:30.622 --> 00:16:36.523
I know a lot of listeners will jump at me
and say, well, we saw 30 Rand levels back

296
00:16:36.523 --> 00:16:36.763
then.

297
00:16:37.624 --> 00:16:42.829
But that was the worst case scenario.

298
00:16:42.829 --> 00:16:45.691
I mean, the oil tankers were sitting all
over the world.

299
00:16:45.731 --> 00:16:46.912
Yeah, that was an anomaly.

300
00:16:47.092 --> 00:16:48.433
It was a moment in time.

301
00:16:48.734 --> 00:16:49.434
Exactly.

302
00:16:49.434 --> 00:16:55.479
But if you take that out, if you take out
the top 10% and the bottom 10% and average

303
00:16:55.479 --> 00:16:57.479
the Sassell price out,

304
00:16:57.479 --> 00:16:59.479
you're quite right.

305
00:16:59.479 --> 00:17:01.479
We are approaching lows here.

306
00:17:01.479 --> 00:17:03.479
And, you know, it's a hundred and four.

307
00:17:03.479 --> 00:17:04.989
It's threatening to go from three figures
to two figures, which I'll come to in a

308
00:17:04.989 --> 00:17:05.249
moment.

309
00:17:05.249 --> 00:17:10.752
But now, but now I'm asking you, and this
is what this colleague of mine said,

310
00:17:11.212 --> 00:17:17.715
he asked the question, said when I mean,
we're talking about a company that's now

311
00:17:17.715 --> 00:17:19.715
valued most probably under four billion

312
00:17:19.715 --> 00:17:21.715
dollars.

313
00:17:21.715 --> 00:17:24.738
And when when are we going to see one of
these big world companies, the likes of

314
00:17:24.738 --> 00:17:26.738
the shells, the BP's?

315
00:17:26.738 --> 00:17:29.920
Those companies come out and say, well, we
can pay this with the cash on hand.

316
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:31.421
I mean, we can go out and ask us.

317
00:17:33.001 --> 00:17:33.802
Yeah, easy.

318
00:17:34.102 --> 00:17:34.802
There we go.

319
00:17:35.763 --> 00:17:41.585
So, I mean, listeners out there that's
currently so, firstly, I'm holding

320
00:17:41.585 --> 00:17:43.585
Sussall.

321
00:17:43.585 --> 00:17:46.267
So, again, one of those not betting the
farm moments.

322
00:17:48.348 --> 00:17:52.450
But I'm definitely one of those companies
where it's

323
00:17:52.690 --> 00:17:59.653
it's not a nice company to have in your
portfolio when every day you open your uh

324
00:17:59.653 --> 00:18:01.653
your portfolio and you see well today's
hustle

325
00:18:01.653 --> 00:18:06.336
is down 3.88 yesterday it was down six
percent or seven percent but just note

326
00:18:06.336 --> 00:18:08.336
that somewhere

327
00:18:08.336 --> 00:18:09.118
along this company is going to attract uh

328
00:18:09.138 --> 00:18:15.801
the interest of large international oil
players and that could be really really

329
00:18:15.861 --> 00:18:21.795
interesting so just one two If they've got
the sort of assets that they desire,

330
00:18:21.895 --> 00:18:23.036
but I don't know if they have.

331
00:18:23.056 --> 00:18:24.136
I mean, look what they've done.

332
00:18:24.617 --> 00:18:26.958
They've been disastrous at the boardroom
level.

333
00:18:27.338 --> 00:18:30.719
And hopefully no one from the board is
listening.

334
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:33.841
But they really have mismanaged, in my
opinion.

335
00:18:34.361 --> 00:18:35.261
But then what do I know?

336
00:18:35.601 --> 00:18:37.302
I'm just looking at the top five today.

337
00:18:37.322 --> 00:18:40.423
And it's Carew and it's Bytes and it's
Sirius and it's Redefined.

338
00:18:40.924 --> 00:18:42.664
The more interesting is the downside.

339
00:18:43.084 --> 00:18:46.546
African Rainbow Minerals down 4%, Harmony
down nearly 4%.

340
00:18:46.906 --> 00:18:53.528
Sassell down nearly 4%, Anglo-American
Platinum 3.2% weaker, and 91 down 2.5%.

341
00:18:53.888 --> 00:18:56.909
Very much skewed to the bigger companies
going down, Skull.

342
00:18:58.189 --> 00:18:59.190
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

343
00:18:59.250 --> 00:19:01.530
No, it's a big day.

344
00:19:01.530 --> 00:19:05.972
And it's also very interesting when you
look at the amount of winners and losers.

345
00:19:06.332 --> 00:19:11.233
When there's this few losers than winners,

346
00:19:11.293 --> 00:19:13.714
then it's also a bit worrying.

347
00:19:14.458 --> 00:19:21.445
As I mentioned, one of those days we'll be
seeing some nervousness, not only in South

348
00:19:21.445 --> 00:19:23.445
Africa, but we're seeing it currently in
the West,

349
00:19:23.445 --> 00:19:25.445
we're seeing it in the US.

350
00:19:25.445 --> 00:19:26.950
And this is the time of the year where you
usually find nervousness.

351
00:19:27.291 --> 00:19:31.034
There's a reason why they call it every
year the October ghost.

352
00:19:31.615 --> 00:19:35.098
And we're now ending the latter part of
October.

353
00:19:35.238 --> 00:19:38.702
And as you rightfully mentioned earlier,
we need to get through November now.

354
00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:46.322
yeah we really do skunk you and i will
always get through any testing month we

355
00:19:46.322 --> 00:19:48.322
know that because we know there's light at
the

356
00:19:48.322 --> 00:19:52.984
end of the tunnel no matter how dark it
seems on whatever day week or month it is

357
00:19:52.984 --> 00:19:54.984
skull just give us the closing jsc

358
00:19:54.984 --> 00:19:56.665
indices and the value traded please so

359
00:19:56.905 --> 00:20:01.246
at the jsc closed today at uh let's uh
let's grab that

360
00:20:01.767 --> 00:20:07.848
86 464 points it's down 33 basis points
the The JEC top 40,

361
00:20:07.928 --> 00:20:09.349
down 29 basis points.

362
00:20:10.429 --> 00:20:12.510
The only sector being in the green.

363
00:20:12.590 --> 00:20:13.290
Oh, wait a minute.

364
00:20:13.290 --> 00:20:14.410
We've got two sectors in the green.

365
00:20:14.750 --> 00:20:17.731
I mean, I saw one of the biggest winners
today.

366
00:20:18.651 --> 00:20:19.432
Yeah, exactly.

367
00:20:19.652 --> 00:20:20.352
Really fun.

368
00:20:20.352 --> 00:20:22.692
I know you and I have been chatting about
properties.

369
00:20:23.113 --> 00:20:24.353
Property, they just do not.

370
00:20:24.373 --> 00:20:30.675
We had a little bit of a retracement after
some of these public counters knocked off

371
00:20:30.675 --> 00:20:32.675
their interest slash dividends.

372
00:20:32.675 --> 00:20:34.856
But, yeah, lately they've been looking
quite attractive again.

373
00:20:35.176 --> 00:20:37.458
So property sector today, 70 basis points
up.

374
00:20:37.938 --> 00:20:39.979
Industrious up 17 basis points.

375
00:20:40.199 --> 00:20:43.282
And resources, as you mentioned, a
horrible day.

376
00:20:43.402 --> 00:20:49.946
1.6% down, while the financials were down
only 0.1%.

377
00:20:50.186 --> 00:20:51.547
We'll look at the value trade for today.

378
00:20:51.647 --> 00:20:55.530
Just shoved $20 billion, 19.8 value traded
for today.

379
00:20:55.990 --> 00:21:00.413
So in general, it's just one of those days
where we've seen the market take a bit of

380
00:21:00.413 --> 00:21:00.593
a breather.

381
00:21:01.294 --> 00:21:04.076
Yeah, I think just to end off, and you
mentioned it, I'm an...

382
00:21:05.657 --> 00:21:12.520
we'll have good days and we've got bad
days, but I still believe that Africa, as

383
00:21:12.520 --> 00:21:14.520
we sit here, now the

384
00:21:14.520 --> 00:21:19.423
23rd of October, still no load shedding,
still a few things going in the right

385
00:21:19.423 --> 00:21:19.442
direction.

386
00:21:19.823 --> 00:21:26.606
Maybe just not a bad idea to look at some
of these weaknesses in terms of what

387
00:21:26.606 --> 00:21:28.606
you've got

388
00:21:28.606 --> 00:21:29.267
invested locally and what you do have
invested offshore.

389
00:21:29.467 --> 00:21:31.308
Ever the optimist, and this time...

390
00:21:32.004 --> 00:21:34.446
which hasn't been the case always during
our conversation.

391
00:21:34.526 --> 00:21:36.527
This time, I think, entirely justified.

392
00:21:36.968 --> 00:21:38.709
Skulk, thank you very much for your time,
as always.

393
00:21:38.749 --> 00:21:43.892
Skulk Lowe is a portfolio manager at PSG
Wealth Old Oak in Cape Town, and that was

394
00:21:43.892 --> 00:21:45.892
the 5 o'clock shadow.

395
00:21:45.892 --> 00:21:51.398
The views and opinions expressed in these
podcasts are those of Lindsay Williams and

396
00:21:51.398 --> 00:21:53.398
various contributors and do not reflect
the policy,

397
00:21:53.398 --> 00:21:55.941
position, or opinion of any other agency,
organisation, employer,

398
00:21:56.261 --> 00:22:00.124
or company associated with
StrictlyBusinessPodcast.com.

399
00:22:00.564 --> 00:22:07.527
Assumptions made on the analyses are not
reflective of the position of any other

400
00:22:07.527 --> 00:22:09.527
entity other than the speaker or the
author.

401
00:22:09.527 --> 00:22:13.009
And since we are critically thinking human
beings, these views are always subject to

402
00:22:13.009 --> 00:22:13.109
change,

403
00:22:13.290 --> 00:22:15.851
revision and rethinking at any time.

404
00:22:16.151 --> 00:22:18.572
Please do not hold us to them in
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